IBM IBM Sys I Entry

Counting The can charge Of IBM i On Power9 Entry methods | killexams.com Real Questions and Pass4sure dumps

April 9, 2018 Timothy Prickett Morgan

anytime there is a Moore’s legislations improve in processing, even if corporations charge by using the core or by the socket, there's cost reduce – in concept at least – for techniques utility. here is authentic if the chip maker decides to goose the efficiency of the cores or add greater cores to a socket, or each on the equal time.

in the past a number of generations of power processors used in the energy methods line, IBM has executed each. because the methods application is in line with cores, youngsters, the flow from two to four to eight to 12 cores per socket has no longer meant a consequent discount within the rate of utility such because the IBM i platform and its built-in database management equipment. however the performance of cores, via a mix of clock speeds and architectural improvements, has often long gone up era to generation, and with the jump from the Power8 to the vigour 9, the base improvement, core for core and at clock speeds usually used in Power8 and Power9 configurations is somewhere between 30 p.c and 50 p.c, as IBM explained to us on the Power9 “ZZ” systems launch lower back in February. The raw performance of the structure, normalized for a socket and at a baseline clock speed they reckon is around four GHz, become someplace between 50 percent and 95 %, reckoning on the workload, IBM divulged returned in the summer of 2016 when the Power9 structure turned into previewed to the chip illuminati.

a couple of weeks in the past, they drilled down into the price/performance of the brand new ZZ systems in base hardware configurations as in comparison to the prior technology of Power8 entry equipment, which which you could review here. The configured machines, which might be in response to the processor configurations that IBM used to do its industrial performance Workload (CPW) benchmark examine plus an affordable amount of reminiscence and disk, can charge anywhere from $12,641 for an influence S914 with four cores running at 2.3 GHz, 64 GB of leading memory and four 600 GB disk drives to $ninety nine,290 for an influence S924 with 24 cores running at 3.4 GHz, 768 GB of memory and those 4 base 600 GB disks. The bang for the buck on the vigour S914, vigour S922, and power S924 machines had a extremely tight latitude of between 23 cents and 27 cents per CPW. The funds on Power8 equipment – the vigor S814, vigour S822, and energy S824 – changed into nearly the same, but the cost per CPW on the machines had a much better and broader latitude, from a low of 25 cents per CPW for a hefty configuration of the energy S822 to a high of sixty six cents per CPW for a midline vigour S824.

To work out what the bottom software costs have been on these two sets of entry vigor programs machines, they discovered what OS/400 and IBM i application tier every configuration changed into in, after which dug round to get the per-core pricing for IBM i. They took out the ninety days of software preservation (SWMA) it is covered with the bottom energy S814 and energy S914 machines to make it reminiscent of the relaxation of the machines, which shouldn't have any SWMA bundled. All vigour programs machines running IBM i require that a 12 months of SWMA, at least, be configured to them, however they are ignoring this for now. They are only attempting to isolate the charges of the utility. They configured IBM i on the entire cores, that are all activated on the machines by way of default beginning with the Power9 iron. IBM i has a base one-time perpetual license cost, and then there is a per-user price of $250 a person on proper of that. They brought this person can charge in, reckoning that someplace around 5,000 CPWs per user is representative of the number of clients on a customary computing device in these classes. (We don't suppose that businesses basically allocate this a good deal CPW to clients, however their database and batch jobs could require that tons oomph even though their on-line transaction processing workloads don't.) i can don't forget when it appeared like 500 CPWs or 1,000 CPWs per person changed into an awful lot.

here is how the Power8 entry machines appear:

definitely, the energy S812L and vigor S822L machines, which might be Linux-only packing containers, can not be loaded up with IBM i. They left the Linux-most effective machines in right here for continuity with the hardware pricing they did a number of weeks ago. The CPW ratings are their estimates for these configurations, and different estimates are additionally proven in daring red. On the P05-class vigour S814 computer, the can charge of the bottom IBM i license is $7,985 across those 4 cores, and with the sixteen users shown, the price rises to $eleven,985. This works out to 30 cents per CPW for the utility – a little bit lower than the can charge of the hardware on a cost per CPW basis. here is the most effective time that occurs, so don’t get excited. (And if they added even a number of more clients to the machine, it will now not be real.)

Hardware charges upward thrust as machines get greater potent, but software charges upward thrust even quicker, as that you could see from the above desk. that you can also see the effect of the use of machines with loads of cores running at reduce clock speeds on IBM i pricing. truly, don’t try this. Get the quickest cores which you could and get as few of them as that you could is their most useful advice.

How plenty extra costly is the hardware than the utility? That is dependent upon the computing device, however the reply to that query is often: a lot more. Take a look:

This indicates the cost per CPW of the hardware configurations they ginned up just a few weeks ago against the bottom IBM i configuration proven in this story. The aspect of expense difference between application and hardware is anywhere from 4.6X to 12.4X, as which you could see.

Now, let’s see how the Power9 entry machines stack up to these. here is the software fees for the ZZ methods that they profiled lower back in March:

In widely wide-spread, the software costs, on a per CPW basis, are reduce, starting from a low of 25 cents to a excessive of $2.ninety five. here's plenty better. but as you can see in the chart under, the delta ingredient between hardware and base IBM i pricing is still in the identical variety of gap, ranging from a low of four.7X to a high of 11X:

That noted, the rate/performance advancements for both base hardware and base utility are fairly gigantic, so it's the first rate news. there has been Moore’s law improvements for both the hardware and the utility, which there certainly may still have been supply the 4 yr hole between these two families of machines. The tempo has slowed, to make sure, however the offers are still enhanced. The concern is that it is not possible to get the cost of a base machine beneath $25,000. They still believe this decal fee is simply too high compared to X86 iron, whatever they are able to discover in a future subject of The four Hundred.

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IBM juices I/O and reminiscence on entry power techniques | killexams.com Real Questions and Pass4sure dumps

when you are a person of an entry or somewhat biggish vigor programs server and also you are memory or I/O restrained, then IBM has some new Power7 machines it wants to sell you. If not, the enterprise is completely happy to sell you the existing Power7 machines, which don't support as lots leading memory and which simplest use PCI-X and PCI-categorical 1.0 peripherals.

On Wednesday, as rumored, IBM did indeed put out new methods – however they aren't in response to the Power7+ chip, however as a substitute present Power7 processors. Some are running on the identical clock speeds as these used within the machines they exchange, and some are working a tad bit sooner thanks to enhanced yields on the forty five nanometer process huge Blue uses to etch the eight-core Power7 processors.

The entry energy 710/730 Power7 server

The updated power 710 and vigor 730 servers are available in the same 2U chassis that their older siblings and close twins have been wrapped in once they have been announced in August 2010.

the brand new vigor 710 has a single Power7 processor and eight DDR3 main memory slots working at 1.07GHz. in contrast to the older 710 model, it supports 16GB memory sticks and for this reason tops out at 128GB as an alternative of 64GB. The computing device additionally has 5 x8 peripheral slots, as an alternative of four, and they run on the sooner PCI-express 2.0 velocity that most servers use at the moment – they are able to delivery the PCI-express three.0 cycle as soon as Intel formally launches its "Sandy Bridge-EP" Xeon E5 processors sometime subsequent year.

These PCI gen-2 x8 peripheral slots operate at 20Gb/sec of bandwidth, twice the gen-1 slots. The old and new power 710s offer the identical processor alternatives: a four-core chip working at 3GHz, a six-core operating at three.7GHz, and an eight-core at 3.55GHz.

The power 730 it truly is according to the equal chassis comes with a two-socket processor card that may guide as much as 256GB using the 16GB sticks, and has four diverse processor options, which have to be introduced in matched pairs: four-core 3GHz, 4-core three.7GHz, six-core three.7GHz, and eight-core 3.55GHz. The chassis has room for six 2.5-inch drives.

The up-to-date energy 720 machine comes in a 4U chassis with room for eight 2.5-inch disks and has the equal five PCI-categorical 2.0 slots. or not it's a single-socket computer, and it may possibly only be configured with Power7 chips working at 3GHz; shoppers can choose a processor with four, six, or eight cores. The entry four-core edition doesn't have a 12X I/O loop (a modified InfiniBand 20Gb/sec hyperlink) to hook to far flung storage bays, but the ones with six or eight cores do. the brand new vigor 720 tops out at 256GB of main reminiscence using the 16GB sticks.

IBM's vigor 720/740 server

The power 740 may also be configured with one or two gadget playing cards, every with one processor, and offers 4 different Power7 processor options: 4-core operating at three.3GHz or three.7GHz, six-core at three.7GHz, and eight-core at 3.55GHz. you could add one processor at a time, however the 2d one has to match the first one if you get round to placing it in.

each processor card has a single 12X remote I/O slot and supports 256GB of leading reminiscence, twice what remaining yr's vigor 740 might do. The machine supports 5 PCI-categorical 2.0 x8 slots, and with optional PCI-express drawers placing off that 12X loop, that you could add an extra forty PCI-specific 2.0 slots to the system.

besides the fatter memory and PCI increase, these 4 machines have a dedicated slot for a twin-port Gigabit Ethernet LAN controller. Nothing else can plug into this slot.

On the power 770, IBM is goosing the speeds on the Power7 processors a bit of, lots because it did with the vigour 750s in April this year. The power 770 computer is made up of 4 two-socket servers which are lashed along side a NUMA chipset that creates an eight-socket, shared memory equipment.

final yr's fashions used six-core Power7s operating at 3.5GHz or eight-core chips operating at 3.1GHz. within the new energy 770, the six-core chips are revved to 3.72GHz and the eight-core versions spin at 3.3GHz. The maximum reminiscence on this desktop is doubled to 4TB the use of 16GB reminiscence, and the server nodes now have six PCI-categorical 2.0 x8 peripheral slots.

IBM's four-chassis vigor 770

As part of the Power7 launch in February 2010, a special version of the 4-chassis vigour 770, referred to as the vigour 780, became created with a dual-boot mode that allowed for half of the cores to be turned off on reboot and the chip clocks to run somewhat larger. This additionally allowed the 32GB of embedded DRAM L3 cache to be carved up by using half as many processor cores. For loads of workloads (akin to database processing), the doubling in L3 cache and moderate clock pace enhance per core may end up in a computer that does significantly more work.

With the new power 780 launched this week, IBM is shifting the energy 780 to four sockets from the outdated two and plunking in six-core chips. So the accurate-conclusion mannequin has 96 cores, operating at 3.44GHz. The sixty four-core mannequin, which is in keeping with eight-core processors, also become tweaked, with cores that run at 3.92GHz with all cores on (a little better than the three.86GHz of closing yr's mannequin) and at four.14GHz with half the cores deactivated (the equal as the prior computing device). reminiscence capability on both new vigour 780 editions is doubled to a max of 4TB.

Why not push the energy 780 the entire method to 128 cores and use full eight-core Power7 chips? as a result of that would intrude with energy 795 income, and IBM expenses a nice top rate for processors, reminiscence, and application on those boxes.

The vigor 795s scale as much as 32 sockets, 256 cores, and 1,024 threads as well as up to 8TB of reminiscence. IBM's AIX 7.1 and purple Hat and SUSE Linuxes can span these cores and threads in a single graphic, but large Blue's personal IBM i (formerly OS/400) operating gadget peters out at 32 cores and 128 threads devoid of special patches.

by the way, neither the vigour 750 nor the power 795 have been up-to-date with double memory or PCI-specific 2.0 peripheral slots. Steve Sibley, director of product management for the vigor techniques line at huge Blue, tells El Reg that the enterprise decided that these machines did not need the I/O or reminiscence improvements presently. The vigour 750 already supported 512GB of memory the use of 8GB sticks, and it is incredibly unlikely that IBM has many shoppers clamoring for 16TB energy 795s.

the new energy programs will be attainable on October 21. Pricing within the base machines is the exact same for the entry energy 710, 720, 730, and 740 machines – and this is so with the aid of intention, says Sibley, to make it viable for IBM's earnings reps and channel partners to focal point on selling both forms of machines.

If it were me doing the purchasing, i might both demand a box that may support the faster I/O and fatter memory or demand a value cut if i was buying the older box from remaining year. ®

subsidized: fitting a practical protection leader

IBM power device S922: Rack Server Overview and insight | killexams.com Real Questions and Pass4sure dumps

See the total checklist of good rack server carriers

base line:

The IBM vigor techniques S922 server is designed from the ground up for information intensive workloads like databases or analytics. it may possibly support a number of key business information-intensive scenarios, together with mainstream purposes, leading-part HPC workloads and evolving artificial intelligence (AI) tasks.

shoppers seeking essential compute power should still understand this key truth: POWER9 solutions are the basis of the realm’s first and third quickest supercomputers, the U.S. branch of power’s Summit and Sierra installations.

IBM power servers are likely to have an improved can charge of entry than x86 machines. youngsters, in keeping with a study by using Quark + Lepton, IBM vigour methods operating IBM I software have 60% reduce complete cost of ownership than home windows/SQL Server or X86 based mostly Oracle systems. IBM’s pitch is that there are limits to what commodity architectures can do.

although, in case you are expecting surges prominent and don’t have room for downtime, licensing prices, or occasional crashes a stronger commercial enterprise structure could be required.

Product description:

The S922 is a 1 or 2 socket server that presents a wide selection of core configurations and up to 4 TB of memory. Chip core speeds on the four-core are 2.8 to 3.8GHz, on the eight core are three.4 to 3.9 GHz and on the 10 core are 2.9 to three.8 GHz. the only socket edition offers up to 6 PCIe ( 2 x Gen4 and 4 x Gen3) slots and both socket edition gives as much as 9 slots (three more Gen4 slots). One slot is used by means of a compulsory Ethernet adapter. depending on what's connected, up to 3 of these slots may well be reserved for different functions. IBM i is just supported on the 6 cores and 8 core processors and is proscribed to 4 cores of IBM i with a software tier of P10.

power systems are general for his or her RAS (resiliency, availability, serviceability) aspects. IBM POWER9-primarily based systems are stated to convey up to 10X faster bandwidth acceleration and 50% more advantageous memory bandwidth than related x86 options. They additionally help the newest in records transfer technologies, including PCIe four.0 and novel NVLink and OpenCAPI interfaces. This new server generation comes together with twice the reminiscence footprint than POWER8. alterations in the memory subsystem and the use of the newest DIMMs boost fee/efficiency.

facets:

number of processors:

as much as 2

Processors supported:

IBM POWER9 Scale-Out SMT8 processor (12-core, 10-core, eight-core, four-core choices)

Cores per processor:

4, 8,10 cores per socket

maximum processor frequency/cache:

three.9 GHz/512k L2 and 10 MB L3

I/O growth slots:

the single socket edition gives up to six PCIe ( 2 x Gen4 and 4 x Gen3) slots and the two socket edition offers as much as 9 slots (3 extra Gen4 slots). One slot is used by way of a mandatory Ethernet adapter. counting on what's connected, up to a few of these slots may be reserved for different purposes.

One entrance USB 3.0 ports – Two rear USB 3.0 ports – Two HMC 1 GbE RJ45 ports – One device port with RJ45 connector – 1x USB three.0 entrance, 2x USB three.0 rear, 2x HMC 1 GB Eth RJ45 ports, one system port with RJ45 connector, 2x excessive pace 25 Gb/s ports

highest reminiscence/# slots/speed:

up to four TB/32 IS RDIMM slots/up to 2666 Mhz

optimum Persistent reminiscence:

NA 

Storage controller:

S922/S924 has two interior direct connected storage connectors, an NVMe card and a SAS card

aid:

The electronic services internet portal is a single cyber web entry factor that replaces the multiple entry points traditionally used to access IBM internet features and help. This web portal permits you to profit more straightforward access to IBM materials for guidance in resolving technical problems. The newly more desirable My systems and top rate Search functions make it even more convenient for digital carrier Agent-enabled consumers to track device inventory and locate pertinent fixes.

My methods provides useful studies of put in hardware and utility using tips amassed from the programs by way of IBM electronic service Agent. stories can be found for any system linked to the client's IBMid. top rate Search combines the function of search and the value of electronic service Agent information, featuring superior search of the technical help knowledgebase.

“it is a clear choice if you already have a longtime IBM AIX atmosphere and want to maintain compatibility and hold efficiency. There are related alternate options now which may well be in a position to get you to three nines for 1/2 the costs,” pointed out a Senior manager of IT within the manufacturing industry. 

Key markets and use situations:

IBM vigor techniques S922 server easily integrates into a company’s cloud & cognitive method and delivers superior fee efficiency for mission crucial workloads.

POWER9 is designed from the ground up for facts intensive workloads like databases or analytics

fee:

20 core, 512 GB, $37,222. The application is costly.

“it is a product with excessive performance, efficiency and financial indices in the IT market,” pointed out an functions Engineering in the education trade. "Deployment is very convenient, however took greater than three months. It proved competitively priced in the long run.”

Server

IBM energy S922

Max Processor Frequency

three.9 GHz/512k L2 and 10 MB L3

Max Persistent memory

N/A

kind ingredient

2U

Max Processors

2 POWER9 Scale-Out SMT8

Max reminiscence

four TB

Max Storage

four TB

cost

$37,222

Key Differentiator

appropriate processing energy

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Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World? | killexams.com real questions and Pass4sure dumps

Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World? Brian Connors KB1KKC (W6NNABE) on November 11, 2004View comments about this article!

It seems to me that much of the interesting work these days in the amateur radio world isn't being done by hams at all, but by people working within the Part 15 limits of the 802.11 world, dealing with antenna design, signal connectivity, and the Last Mile problem.

Spokane, WA is running a citywide WiFi system, and there are countless wardrivers and guerilla networkers who are contributing valuable information on signal propagation and infrastructure design. It seems to me the WiFi hackers of the 21st Century are the spiritual heirs to the tradition of packet radio, so why do they see so little discussion of WiFi technology within the circles that contribute to places like eHam? Are these people not radio amateurs just the same as us, with or without licenses?

Member Comments: This article has expired. No more comments may be added. WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by K4IQT on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! If they have to HACK into that Spokane WiFi network then these "wardrivers and guerilla networkers" are NOT "radio amateurs" through their actions, and are NOT spiritual heirs to anything except the long-standing traditions of theft and vandalism!

If you have a public network with legitimate unrestricted access, sure they are free to tinker with it all they want to. However, just because the limits of Part 15 are observed does not make breaking into a network legal or ethical.

I've got a WiFi LAN at home, and have to run 256 bit WEP to keep out unwanted visitors and drive-by networkers (a neighbor kid broke my 128-bit WEP). Even that level of security won't keep out someone with lots of time, a WiFi laptop, and some network busting software that is available on the Internet.

Nearly all radio amateurs are strictly legal in their operating and methodologies, and are not brothers-in-arms with hackers. Having enough knowledge of electronics, propagation, antennas, and standards specifications to break into controlled and half-secure communication networks is certainly not anything to be proud of.

  our bands, their interference   by KZ1X on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I am sending this message via an 802.11 link, so, I know how useful the technology is. I hold a patent covering a technology key to the widespread deployment of 802.11, and I am also a contributing member of the IEEE standards body working on WiFi.

That said: Propagation on (and antenna construction techniques for) the 2.4 GHz band is well known and documented. WiFi users do not add any new knowledge in this area. In fact, they routinely ignore and violate Part 15 with their illegal modifications to equipment, which then intrude into amateur radio spectrum.

Sorry. While a small minority of the computer network folks might become good hams, most are just interested in skirting alternate, legal means of establishing connectivity. Bad news is bad news, even if it only has a 300' range. Would you ask people who hack their cordless phones to double the range, illegally, to come to your next testing session? I didn't think so. There's little difference.

You may wish to look at the ARRL's program to encourage experimentation in this band by hams and hams-to-be.

  RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by TIMOTHIUS on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "If they have to HACK into that Spokane WiFi network then these "wardrivers and guerilla networkers" are NOT "radio amateurs" through their actions, and are NOT spiritual heirs to anything except the long-standing traditions of theft and vandalism!"

The computer crowd is struggling with ethics. many of the younger computer users learn to hack before they learn that it is wrong to do so. If I am not mistaken, they by virtue of the license are able to make certain modifications to their equipment. The wifi is a non licensed portion of the spectrum and therefore, I believe not suppposed to be modified. Why is it so hard for some folks to stay within the law.

If I am wrong here please help me out.

Tim, ke5bhf

  Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K7NNG on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! SIMPLE, It is not ham radio. wifi operators usually do what they want and break the rules...so I don't want them around. Ham radio is radio, computers are computers....its simple..   RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by K4NR on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Tim,

"The wifi is a non licensed portion of the spectrum "

Check your band charts and you'll find that most (if not all) of the spectrum used by common 802.11 data is allocated for use by Amateur Radio.

73 de Tom, K4NR

  Headline   by AA6E on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "KB1KKC feels they should embrace WiFi technicians."

My reaction: I'm not _that_ hard up for a date!

  Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WA2JJH on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I use my 802A/b laptop all over New york city.Plenty of people have set up Free Publc Access to WI-FI.

Many colleges have non WEP systems.

This one dude wired up all of Central Park for WI-FI.

Yes, if your on a non WEP system you risk being hacked.

802B(7 channels) are like public water fountines.

I am involved with a group of Hams and others that want to make more free WIFI.

It is good for the information age, and hopefully will make BPL undesirable.

I do not condone ripping off someones system.802B can be free legally. Only problem is you have zero expectation of privacy. It is not a panacea.

  RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by TIMOTHIUS on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Tom, Thanks for the info. What about the modification for the equipment? I belive that hams are allowed to make some mods to there equipment. I am not sure about wifi? Are they allowed to modify the equipment?

I run wifi here at the house and love it. I ran large computer systems for years and it is great to be off the wire. I do however protect myself by using firewall, WEP and MAC filtering to prevent theft of bandwidth and hacking of my system. This is not fool proof but it is a layer of security. To do any less is irresponsible.

Tim, ke5bhf

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by W2DUG on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! > Are these people not radio amateurs just the same as> us, with or without licenses?

They may be radio hobbyists, but they would not make good hams because (a) they probably wouldn't want to be forced to operate within the confines of the ham license, and (b) they probably don't have the patience that ham radio requires.

Radio communication for the sake of radio communication--that is, amateur radio--is not really very interesting to them in comparison to the applications of WiFi and the access to the Internet they desire.

  Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by NE0P on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "Are these people not radio amateurs just the same as us, with or without licenses?"

Actually CB operators would be closer to unlicensed "Brother Hams" than WiFi developers would be, and look at how they treat them!

73s John NE0P

  RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by K4NR on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Tim,

The ARRL bandplan encourages us to use one of the WIFI channels (I think it's channel 7, but that's from memory)and use their callsigns as part of the SSID. There no reason they can't modify equipment and experiment with the technology.

WEP and MAC filtering are good starts but easily spoofed. I need to take a look at my WIFI access point and see if there's a way to turn off the broadcast SSID and make the network "invisible".

A local WIFI ISP in my area did a site survey around my house. 135 networks--88 wide open. Most peole set up the networks using the default settings for security. I wonder how many even bother to change the default passwords?

73 de Tom, K4NR

  RE: their bands, their interference   by K4RAF on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "WiFi users do not add any new knowledge in this area. In fact, they routinely ignore and violate Part 15 with their illegal modifications to equipment, which then intrude into amateur radio spectrum."

Ahhh, yes... Riding that high & mighty horse of exclusion?

- This is the very reason why they are minimized & the FCC forced us to SHARE the band because of bratty attitudes shown here from the start. WiFi'rs are clearly putting us to shame when literally millions are using their packet technology to move the world forward while bitter hams sit with 9600 baud packet from 1983 & are content with it but jealous of others. If you think holding a license is proof of technical competency, you obviously don't have a clue or are intentionally blind to reality. There are 25 hams in my county yet there are over 500 Access Points, do the math rocket scietists!

"Nearly all radio amateurs are strictly legal in their operating and methodologies, and are not brothers-in-arms with hackers."

- You're either in denial or don't operate often. Tuner uppers, 2KHz "wedging", "nets on schedule", UnID'd comments & general absurd behavior has taken over the bands along with the ever present "What's YOUR call?" How many hams have been caught jamming "public service" frequencies or each other? Oh yea, highly ethical hams...

"Having enough knowledge of electronics, propagation, antennas, and standards specifications to break into controlled and half-secure communication networks is certainly not anything to be proud of"

- A ham license test is far from a proof of knowledge because 50% of Extra-lites can't even solder a pilot light! Appliance operators have no WEP but I'd bet they easily become hams.

The entire tone of this thread is rather embarrassing. How can they attract interest when it is so far from reciprocal? Resentment is no equal to respect. I respect geeks but quickly losing respect for hams because of old attitudes that simply haven't died although they should. Being "patient" with ham radio is accepting yesterday's standards as "good enough" for today & not planning a push for tomorrow. Just look at CW!!!

Viva la WiFi, WiMax & 802.Xx geeks!

k4raf@yahoo.com

  Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WA1RNE on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Radio control pilots use radio frequencies to accomplish their task but they are not considered radio amateurs - so why should a WiFi user be considered one?

WiFi allows users to communicate using a set transmission protocol with and without encryption.

Radio amateurs can change transmission modes and frequencies which is a horse of a different color.

by the way, try using WPA encryption with TKIP. That is a much stronger method of encryption that your neighbor kid will pull his hair out trying to decode your key from about 150 million different possibilities.

  Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WN3VAW on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! WiFi? What about the potential BPL Killer, WiMax 802.16?   RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by KC8VWM on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "The ARRL bandplan encourages us to use one of the WIFI channels (I think it's channel 7, but that's from memory)and use their callsigns as part of the SSID."

Word of Caution..

You are not permitted by the rules to use that device to transmit internet "commercial" content over that device if it is regulated as a part 97 amateur radio device.

Part 15 devices on the other hand do not have this restriction.

you might want to rethink the use of your callsign on the SSID of the device, especially if your using your Wifi device for any "commercial" interests using the internet.

Remember the "Using a repeater to order a pizza" scenerio?

Also the use of any digital "encyption" code may not be permitted unless the code is "publically" documented under part 97 rules. Most encyption methods used by manufacturers for Wifi devices may be proprietary and may only be distributed under license. In other words, the encyption code is non public.

Any other thoughts?

73

Charles - KC8VWM

  Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WA6BFH on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Glad to see you got a license Brian! As you might have guessed though, the original WiFi Systems were designed and built by Ham's. Some Ham friends of mine built the first system better than two decades ago. They installed it in the city of Cupertino. You may have seen photo's of some of their original units, it was a cute idea.

They used existing street lamp poles, both for their height, security, and the easy availability for power. The unit was slung below the lamps cross arm with it's whip antenna pointing down, they built a nifty little power plug adapter that plugged into the socket where the lamps photo-electric relay switch was inserted. The whole installation per unit took about 10 minutes each. I can't quite remember the name of their company, and I'm not so hard up for a date either, so as to take the time to research it. You should be able to find them though.

Isn't Ham Radio just more fun and exciting than 'war-driving!' Think about it, 23,471 MHz of spectrum using pretty much any mode you like. Wow, who wants to futz with Pringles can antennas, when they can build real radio stuff! Duh, real Ham's I guess.

Good numbers to ya out there Bubba! Your wall to wall and tree top tall on that Pringles can!

  RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by K4NR on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Charles,

Quote:

You are not permitted by the rules to use that device to transmit internet "commercial" content over that device if it is regulated as a part 97 amateur radio device.

Part 15 devices on the other hand do not have this restriction.

you might want to rethink the use of your callsign on the SSID of the device, especially if your using your Wifi device for any "commercial" interests using the internet.

Remember the "Using a repeater to order a pizza" scenerio?

End Quote

You are correct about the non-commercial use of an amateur 802.11 link. I'm sure the "ordering a pizza on the repeater" thought process will be hashed out down the line. If my memory serves me, that decision was left to the individual control ops rather than a blanket ruling that it was "commercial use" and not authorized.

The ARRL is recommending they use the eSSID to ID.

There is much experimentation happening in this area. I did note that WEP was okay using a published HMSS Key.

Loads of room for much discussion on this issue!

73 de Tom, K4NR

From the ARRL Website:

The ARRL Enhanced IEEE 802.11 Project calls for operation of the basic IEEE standard by licensed amateur radio operators in the upper part of the 2.4 GHz band while not significantly interfering with other amateur radio activities on that band or Part 15 IEEE 802.11b operation in the band. Under Part 97 of the FCC rules, amateurs are allowed to run many times the power of Part 15 operation as well as use antennas with unrestricted gain.

IEEE 802.11b channels 1-6 fall totally within the 2.4 GHz ham band. They are recommending that channels 2-5 be used for IEEE 802.11b operation as they do not interfere with other normal amateur radio operations in the band and are not on channels widely used by Part 15 operations. They recommend that channel 5 be used as the primary channel for general ARRL 802.11 network operation.

SNIP

...we are working on some IEEE 802.11b issues such as all station use "hsmm" as their SSID, and their amateur callsign in any second SSID (eSSID) or node/AP name.

Source: http://www.arrl.org/hsmm/project.html

  RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by AB2M on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Actually, this assertion regarding "unspecified codes" is a little off. The "codes" referred to here are essentially the "protocol" - i.e. Baudot, PACTOR, GTOR, etc. $$97.309(b) says (in part):

"RTTY and data emissions using unspecified digital codes must not be transmitted for the purpose of obscuring the meaning of any communication."

Now, WEP (or any other encryption) would be an unspecified code. Since it would be easily argued that it is being used to obscure the meaning of the communication (even if you argued that it was for access control), I am confident it would be found in violation of $$97.309(b).

I work in the WiFi Security space professionally; there is no solution that will adequately protect a "Part 97 WiFi" installation from malicious use, much as there is no mechanism to protect a repeater from malicious use. MAC filtering and disabling the SSID broadcasts are really all you can bring to bear while still remaining compliant with Part 97, and, as already mentioned, are bypassed trivially.

The real difference here is that unlike a repeater system, the general public is using the same equipment as they are; thereby exposing us not only to the usual repeater-jammer type, but to the computer hacker that doesn't play in the normal RF world. Therefore, your interference (hacking) probability is sky-high from the outset.

I don't have any solutions to offer at this time. From a security point of view, the only security their AX.25 packet networks, repeaters, and HF enjoy would be called "security by obscurity". Remove that, and you open yourself up to the same miscreants that have made the Internet a security nightmare. Or, to analogize in perhaps more familiar terms, it's like having the next FRS service share the 2m band.

73, Joe AB2M

  Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by G0GQK on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Are these suggestions in the true spirit of amateur radio ? Do you honestly believe that that the World of WiFi is the next step forward for ham radio ?   RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K4RAF on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "the only security their AX.25 packet networks, repeaters, and HF enjoy would be called 'security by obscurity'..."

This is a very powerful definition of where they are in relation to the entire Part 15 movement within their own country.

Why bother with a license to restrict you when you can have much more actual fun without endlessly arguing over rules & seeking approval.

It it weren't for 802.11 becoming so widespread, where would hams have to squat & using what?

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by W5HTW on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Some people appear to believe that ham radio is simply a utility by which to connect computers. "Radio" is not the goal; instead, talking between computers is. To me, that makes computers the hobby, not ham radio. And for many of those people, if not most of them, if a better, faster, cheaper method of connecting computers is available, they'll use it.

We need to decide if ham radio is a hobby, or simply a means of conducting some other hobby, i.e., computers and the internet. If it is a utility, eventually it will be governed as such. If they figure that 300 foot communication by WiFi is the hobby of ham radio, then so are cordless phones, garage door openers, home security systems, keyless entry to automobiles, remote operated house lights, and PLC.

Ed

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by W5HTW on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <<he only security their AX.25 packet networks, repeaters, and HF enjoy would be called 'security by obscurity'..."

This is a very powerful definition of where they are in relation to the entire Part 15 movement within their own country.

Why bother with a license to restrict you when you can have much more actual fun without endlessly arguing over rules & seeking approval.

It it weren't for 802.11 becoming so widespread, where would hams have to squat & using what?>>

What about 20 meters CW?

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by W5HTW on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! PS. K4RAF is not found in the QRZ database.

Ed

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by KC8VWM on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! CB or FRS - is a "radio" hobby.

ARS on the other hand is about communications regardless of the limitless spectrum of operating modes available for us to use.

"Voice" communication is only a tiny aspect of the bigger picture of Amateur communications.

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by GHOSTRIDERHF on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I do Ham radio..

I also like to wardrive and read other peoples emails that don't secure their wireless routers.....

Isn't life cool ....

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by KE7CDV on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I'm all for encourging WiFi users to become Hams, but realistically I'm not so sure they have that much to offer them. As far as I can tell, WiFi enthusiasts are primarily motivated by the desire to have wireless Internet access at 'reasonable' speeds (these days meaning at least 128kbps, and preferably more like some-Mbps). The hardware experimentation is limited due to the complexity of the radios. At the end of the day, these folks want to be able to surf the Internet and still read their e-mail, make purchases on Amazon.Com, and, yes, potentially visit porn sites as they wish without anyone telling them otherwise.

Some of the people doing all this are interested in the technical aspects of, e.g., radio design, modulation, propagation, etc., and amateur radio has something to offer them there. On the other hand, when it comes to Internet connectivity -- their main goal -- amateur radio tends to be far more restrictive and much, much slower than what they already have.

---Joel KolstadKE7CDV

  RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by W5HTW on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! However, K4RAF IS in the FCC database. OK, wonder why QRZ doesn't list him? Their choice or his? I am always suspicious of people who want to convert ham radio into the hobby of computer, but in this case, he IS a ham, so I have to retract my implication!

ED

  RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by G7HEU on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! ED

I'm not moaning at you directly :

People need to realise that the QRZ data base is an independant web site. People can choose wether or not they enter thier own details to it.

Don't you guys have a facility to look up calls on the FCC site?

Best wishes

SteveG7HEU / M0HEU.

I'm not 'knocking' QRZ either and I'm happy to have my entry there.

  RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by KC9AGG on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! amen, end of thread...good discussion...it's not "big brother" watching, it's anybody and everybody getting any information they want via the internet...all you have to do is look me up!!( have a peep show for yourself).   RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by N2WEC on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! What the Hell is "WiFi"? I have yet to see a good explanation of just what it is. Whats the deal?   RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by AE6IP on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! > PS. K4RAF is not found in the QRZ database

Really? and the fact that Fred is deliberately excluding licensed hams from his database is relevant to K4RAF's arguments in what way?

(PPS: K4RAF *is* in the FCC database.)

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by G7HEU on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! N2WEC

For you:

http://www.lordpercy.com/wifi_explained.htm

Steve.

  RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by AE6IP on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! > What the Hell is "WiFi"?

It's market speak. WiFi = "Wireless Fidelity". Means the network interface between computers is radio based, rather than wires.

A lot of local-area networks (LANs) now use 802.11b standard RF networks. This is great for building area nets and laptop users, since the laptop can be connected without being physically teathered. Means I can walk into a meeting with my laptop and still be on line.

802.11b is only one of a family of 802.11 wireless protocols. These days 802.11g, which is faster, is becoming popular.

  Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by W2EV on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! WiFi experimenters of 2004 are not unlike wireless experimenters of 1904. Wouldn't it be cool if, instead of treating them like bandits or undesirables, they found a way to embrace and Elmer them to their (and society's) benefit?

Think in new ways. This could work.

Ev Tupis, W2EV

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by G7HEU on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! KD5RGJ

Either you are experiencing QRM or you should hit the 'refresh' button on your browser.

Steve.

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by G7HEU on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! W2EV / Ev

It's a little like short wave listening for the 21st centuary:

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/internet/0,39020369,2118000,00.htm

Steve

  WiFi overshoots the Ham World!   by K4RAF on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Just did a wardrive this afternoon, using a 7dB magnet mount & a 200mW Senao card:

Here in rural South Central Virginia, my county has 25 active hams at the most, yet I logged 155 Access Points in just 1 of 5 towns. 11 were WEP'd. 75% were defaulted to channel 6 & no changes made to anything. That is no one's fault but the "system administrator" since only 2 sites actually offer open access (the library & a car dealer)

?QRZ? Oh Please feel free: k4raf@yahoo.com

  RE: WiFi overshoots the Ham World!   by KC8VWM on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! That warchalking article from London was very interesting Steve.

73

Charles - KC8VWM

  Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by W6NNABE on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Well, now that I've seen some of the responses, I should give my own position. (Note that I use "hack" in the nonintrusive sense -- wifi hackers are people trying to get the most out of 802.11 equipment, not necessarily trying to break security.)

What it comes down to is this -- radio is mainly about communications. What the wifi hackers are doing is finding ways to get a miniscule signal to propagate as far and as effectively as possible, and to that end they're bringing new interest to microwave engineering. They're the ones doing the homebrew antenna projects, trying to figure out how to milk that last dB of gain out of an antenna; essentially, they're trying to get the most out of microwave QRP. And they're doing all that with type-accepted off-the-shelf equipment.

Okay, so it's only one mode, a form of packet radio. But I still think there's enough ingenuity and original thinking going on to accept the wifi hackers.

  Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by AA6YQ on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! There's an awful lot of painting with broad brushes going on here. Most people involved in wireless networking aren't hackers any more than most hams are QRMers. Yes, both communities are plagued by a small number of sociopaths and poseurs, but we've suffered similars fools since the dawn of telecommunications.

There are huge opportunities for hams to innovate with wireless technology, but connecting consumers to the internet isn't one of them; part 97 precludes this, and anything new would require enormous differentiation to gain mind-share. But mesh networking, peer-to-peer protocols, compression schemes, location determination -- all of these could be pursued by hams with cheap off-the-shelf hardware operating under part 97 on amateur bands.

Most of the communications revolution is in front of us, not behind us.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by W6NNABE on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I use "hacker" in the sense of someone who likes to do interesting things with the equipment. It's actually something of a compliment in the computer world, and that sense (more or less the original sense of the word) is coming back somewhat. I refer directly to the O'Reilly title Wireless Hacks, whose hacks are all about things you can do with your 802.11 installation and how to do them and nothing to do with trying to compromise someone else's network.   RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WA6BFH on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! W6NNABE, I don't mean this as a 'put down' but, how old are you? I am thinking that your just not old enough, or maybe not experienced enough, to look at "RF" as a widely dynamic engineering pursuit.

Thats cool though! It's good that you are seeking broad perspective. I just think you need a little more experience.

No harm dog, I'm up with it (or is that I'm down with it)!

.- .-. ____ . ____ de John

  Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by AB0SF on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! After reading the majority of the postings on this thread, I'm embarrassed to admit that I actually wasted the time to obtain my Amateur Radio License. Now I have a better understanding why my colleagues give me grief about being a Ham. Their image to the rest of society totally sucks at the present time.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy this hobby profusely, but this narrow-minded, holier-than-though crap has got to go to the wayside, folks, lest they wither away into a sidebar in the history books.

While companies like Intel are producing 10 GHz xvcrs the size of a microprocessor, what are they doing? Flaming people who have an interest in a certain aspect in radio but who aren't hams. Get off your high-horses, and look at this as a marketing opportunity. There is a direct correlation between today's crackers (They're certainly not hackers.) and tomorrow's hams. Let's be true to the Amateur Tradition and show them the way, not their nostrils. Have fun. I hope your boat anchor keeps you warm this winter.

P.S. By the way, the overwhelming majority of War-Drivers are true to the hacker-ethic. They merely seek out the networks and indicate their potential flaws. No intentional connection, no intentional "theft of service," no breaking into computers on the wireless networks' network. Don't assume everyone enjoying this niche hobby is a malicious fool like the media stories love to point out.

  Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by KB1JCY on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Let's clarify things ...

From "The Jargon File" published by Eric S. Raymond:

<i>hacker: n.

[originally, someone who makes furniture with an axe]

1. A person who enjoys exploring the details of programmable systems and how to stretch their capabilities, as opposed to most users, who prefer to learn only the minimum necessary. RFC1392, the Internet Users' Glossary, usefully amplifies this as: A person who delights in having an intimate understanding of the internal workings of a system, computers and computer networks in particular.

2. One who programs enthusiastically (even obsessively) or who enjoys programming rather than just theorizing about programming.

3. A person capable of appreciating hack value.

4. A person who is good at programming quickly.

5. An expert at a particular program, or one who frequently does work using it or on it; as in ‘a Unix hacker’. (Definitions 1 through 5 are correlated, and people who fit them congregate.)

6. An expert or enthusiast of any kind. One might be an astronomy hacker, for example.

7. One who enjoys the intellectual challenge of creatively overcoming or circumventing limitations.

8. [deprecated] A malicious meddler who tries to discover sensitive information by poking around. Hence password hacker, network hacker. The correct term for this sense is cracker.</i>

Compare with:

<i>cracker: n.

One who breaks security on a system. Coined ca. 1985 by hackers in defense against journalistic misuse of hacker (q.v., sense 8). An earlier attempt to establish worm in this sense around 1981--82 on Usenet was largely a failure.

Use of both these neologisms reflects a strong revulsion against the theft and vandalism perpetrated by cracking rings. The neologism “cracker” in this sense may have been influenced not so much by the term “safe-cracker” as by the non-jargon term “cracker”, which in Middle English meant an obnoxious person (e.g., “What cracker is this same that deafs their ears / With this abundance of superfluous breath?” — Shakespeare's King John, Act II, Scene I) and in modern colloquial American English survives as a barely gentler synonym for “white trash”.

While it is expected that any real hacker will have done some playful cracking and knows many of the basic techniques, anyone past larval stage is expected to have outgrown the desire to do so except for immediate, benign, practical reasons (for example, if it's necessary to get around some security in order to get some work done).

Thus, there is far less overlap between hackerdom and crackerdom than the mundane reader misled by sensationalistic journalism might expect. Crackers tend to gather in small, tight-knit, very secretive groups that have little overlap with the huge, open poly-culture this lexicon describes; though crackers often like to describe themselves as hackers, most true hackers consider them a separate and lower form of life. An easy way for outsiders to spot the difference is that crackers use grandiose screen names that conceal their identities. Hackers never do this; they only rarely use noms de guerre at all, and when they do it is for display rather than concealment.

Ethical considerations aside, hackers figure that anyone who can't imagine a more interesting way to play with their computers than breaking into someone else's has to be pretty losing. Some other reasons crackers are looked down on are discussed in the entries on cracking and phreaking. See also samurai, dark-side hacker, and hacker ethic. For a portrait of the typical teenage cracker, see warez d00dz.</i>

I consider myself a hacker because I work on open source software build complex websites. I have no interest in defacing or breaking into systems. Ham radio is hacker culture before there were computers. They have convieniently forgotten that fact. Back to your regular eHam discussion thread. Troll on!

  RE: WiFi overshoots the Ham World!   by K1YDA on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Where are all the Peeping Toms these days?? Riding around town in a beat up Escort with a powerful 200mw card and a magmount trying to read other folks email that's where. "Wardrive"-- more like pencil neck geek looking at somebody's dirty underwear.   RE: WiFi overshoots the Ham World!   by KB1JCY on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <quote>Where are all the Peeping Toms these days?? Riding around town in a beat up Escort with a powerful 200mw card and a magmount trying to read other folks email that's where. "Wardrive"-- more like pencil neck geek looking at somebody's dirty underwear.</quote>

You've failed to make the distinction between those who do it for the technical challenge. I've done wardriving for the pure intelectual curiosity of understanding propogation on 2.4 gig. Not everyone is reading your spam, er I mean, mail.

Listen, wardrivers and 802.11b tinkerers have the radio bug. They are curious about learning how radio works. Why are screwing the pooch by showing their uglier side and losing a captive audience?

I've met some script kiddies and wannabes. They turned into real techies because somebody took the time to show them The Right Path.

  RE: WiFi overshoots the Ham World!   by AD7BK on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! So if they used say channle 3 and with their ham ticket can they run more than the part 15 max? Like 50 watts or even 100 watts? And would they be able to use it with WEP? Since part 97 states they can't use code, chiphers, or other means of obscuring the intent of the transmission.   RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by N5BSD on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! [quote]If they have to HACK into that Spokane WiFi network then these "wardrivers and guerilla networkers" are NOT "radio amateurs" through their actions, and are NOT spiritual heirs to anything except the long-standing traditions of theft and vandalism! [/quote]

Most 'WarDrivers' simply map networks and upload the data to databases I myself have done this to see what is around my area or between here and Austin when I go there (TONS of 2WIRE nodes on the default channel :| )

Wardriving is not doing any illegal or shady really. now breaking wep keys and accessing networks with out permission from the network owner is something entirely different. So please do not lump all wardrivers in to the category of crackers, phreakers and the rest who do harm in their practices. To do this would be like saying all Hams are old men who do not do anything but harp about new technology and only use outdated technology for nothing more than a hobby practice that should have long since been put to pasture. Since they know this is not so, please do not over generalize.

That is just my two cents worth of rant. Thanks for the bandwidth.

73 All

JohnN5BSD

  RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by KC8VWM on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Wardrivers definetly have the "radio bug"

They are interested in signals and how far they can propogate. Hackers on the other hand is a totally different matter.

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by KE7CDV on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! [I'm quoting a lot of different people here, sorry for the confusion this will cuause]

>WiFi experimenters of 2004 are not unlike wireless>experimenters of 1904.

Mmm... I think there's one big difference: In 1904, the average 'wireless experimenter' had a decent shot at significnatly advancing the world's collective knowledge about wireless communications. In 2004, while it's certainly not _out of the question_ that a WiFi experimenter would do so, it's _far_ less likely: WiFi is already built on top of _very_ complex communication techniques. The simple fact is that relatively few people understand that complexity, and hence the likelihood of increasing knowledge in the are is greatly diminished.

>Wouldn't it be cool if,>instead of treating them like bandits or>undesirables, they found a way to embrace and Elmer >them to their (and society's) benefit?

I don't think anyone's suggested treating them like bandits, we're trying to figure out how to best attract them to amateur radio -- if there's a point in doing so.

>What it comes down to is this -- radio is mainly>about communications. What the wifi hackers are >doing>is finding ways to get a miniscule signal to>propagate as far and as effectively as possible, and>to that end they're bringing new interest to>microwave engineering.

Yes.

>They're the ones doing the>homebrew antenna projects, trying to figure out how>to milk that last dB of gain out of an antenna;>essentially, they're trying to get the most out of>microwave QRP.

The problem is that it's one heck of a lot harder to figure out whether or not you're actually making improvements to that microwave QRP system when your main indicator is some highly filtered 'signal strength' indication from software on a PC. I think the amateur radio microwave guys have it right in that they start with spectum analyzers or at least CW when they're trying to make system improvements -- it gives much more immediate feedback.

Look at the specifications on www.cantenna.com for their main product:

Frequency: 2400-2500 MHzGain: 12 dbiBeam Width: Approx. 30 degreesImpedance: 50 OhmMax input: 50 WattsVSWR: <1.5:1 avg.

Uh huh. What's the polarization? What's the shape of that beam -- is it symmetrical or not? Since when do people talk about 'average' VSWRs and not maximums?

These guys are not going to be submitting papers to the IEEE any time soon. :-) There's nothing wrong with that, but they're really in a different league than the W7PUAs and W8JK's of the world; it gets back to the idea that, no, these guys are not to modern communications what wireless experimenters were in 1904.

>And they're doing all that with type->accepted off-the-shelf equipment.

Well, not always! :-) There's a thriving market for 2.4GHz amplifiers out there, and I doubt a lot of them ever went through type acceptance.

>P.S. By the way, the overwhelming majority of War->Drivers are true to the hacker-ethic. They merely>seek out the networks and indicate their potential>flaws.

I think most War Drivers are driven (pun unintended) by the desire to check their e-mail every 10 minutes and brag to their buddies about how many open access points they found. Standard teenager-crowd motivation for doing just about anything -- being popular! I do agree that most of it is perfectly benign. (Somewhat like 'stealing a kiss' from a woman many decades ago, before their cultural decided that that always constitute sexual harassment and will likely leave you in jail.)

I'm all for encouraging WiFi'ers to join the ranks of amateur radio, it's just unclear to me exactly what _we_ have to offer them. Regulations prohibit the main thing they're after -- wireless Internet access who no restrictions on the data being transferred, including whether or not it's encrypted. I will buy the argument that there's a lot that amateur radio could give to the WiFi'ers who are interested in propagation at 2.4GHz.

---Joel

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by N5PVL on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Quote:-------------------------> PS. K4RAF is not found in the QRZ database

Really? and the fact that Fred is deliberately excluding licensed hams from his database is relevant to K4RAF's arguments in what way?

(PPS: K4RAF *is* in the FCC database.)-------------------------

Fred tends to filter out obnoxious jerks who troll QRZ, or who display a strong anti-ham attitude.

Nuff said.

Charles, N5PVL

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by AB2RC on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! " PS. K4RAF is not found in the QRZ database."

it is listed in the fcc uls database.

  Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by KB9YZL on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Well………….In scanning this thread, I see at least one good thing coming out of this discussion: The “Holier-Than-Thou” crowd now has a choice!

Whenever they’re feeling particularly vitriolic, they can either bash the “CB Crowd” (the old standby), or the new “WI-FI Bunch”…………And they don’t even have to change their rhetoric! (You know….”Lazy”, “Ignores the Rules”, “Illegal Operation”, yada-yada-yada, blah-blah-blah.)

Remember:…. Variety is the Spice of Life!

Kent CarrollKB9YZL“Appliance Operator”

  RE: WiFi overshoots the Ham World!   by K4NR on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Quote:

And would they be able to use it with WEP? Since part 97 states they can't use code, chiphers, or other means of obscuring the intent of the transmission.

End Quote

From the ARRL:

Quote:

While IEEE 802.11b allows WEP, an encryption algorithm, Amateur Radio transmissions are characterized as being an open media. That is, amateur radio operators expect and assume that their transmissions are being listened to around the world with no presumption of privacy. And, the FCC even mandates that hams will not encode/encrypt to obscure meaning.

End Quote

I thought I read something about using a standardized WEP protocol at http://www.arrl.org/hsmm/wep.html but did not have time to do any further research.

I also found the following with seems to contradict the first:

Quote:

Thus, the HSMM Working Group respectfully asks the ARRL Board of Directors for theirsupport of this needed regulatory change and urges the Board to support the development andfiling of a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) permitting the use of encryption and strongsecurity protocols on domestic transmissions above 50 MHz.

End Quote

Source: http://www.arrl.org/hsmm/ofdm/WhitePaper7.pdf

I also read that there is some experimentation happening outside of the 2.4 gigahertz band.

73 de Tom, K4NR

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K8MHZ on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <Fred tends to filter out obnoxious jerks who troll QRZ, or who display a strong anti-ham attitude.>

As many, or more, others have voluntarily left QRZ due to Fred's attitude. Fred has a right to do what he wants, of course, but his attitude has become very narrow minded and monocratic resulting in unexplained banning and guilt by association.

QRZ has now become a reflection of Fred's morals. eHam is still the best place to get all the views on a subject as it remains a true open forum.

The QRZ database is incomplete, as it only includes hams that have not treaded on Fred's fragile psyche.

Now, back to their original subject...WiFi

I have to admit that I am not up on WiFi. Their city doesn't have it, but the city to the south of us does.

The question of whether or not they should embrace WiFi pioneers is a good one, but what about hams taking on WiFi as a new ground for exploration? The Internet was fertile ground and has been used by hams as a very good tool (anyone disagreeing will have to do so by sending me traffic on the ARES nets. Call K8MHZ QTH Muskegon, Michigan USA, or by snail mail, as a response on the Internet that hams don't use it would be considered silly :) ) and I think that WiFi would be great putty in the hands of skilled amateur 'sculptors'.

I contacted the VP of the wireless provider in the city that has it. It is about 16 miles to the nearest antenna. I asked if he minded if I tried building a high gain antenna to try to get into his system from here. He not only liked the idea, he told me what types of equipment people were using to get the best coverage. He also was interested in learning of my progress. When I first called him, I knew even less than I know now about WiFi but he filled me in the best he could.

Today's hams may not be able to build useable gear out of discarded trinkets (some can! I am talking about the average ham) but they know how to build high gain antennas, they know a little about probagation, they can do cool things like bounce signals, make computer programs to turn laptops into repeater controllers, etc. I think if today's ham tackled WiFi like they did the Internet, WiFi would be so widespread that BPL would have no marketable value.

Granted, WiFi exploration is no place for someone that thinks HF QRP CW is the answer to every conceivable question, but it is fertile, nearly untilled ground for the advancement of radio.

We need to realize that digital radio is here to stay. It is not just used for text comms anymore. The benefits of digital voice communications are demonstrated by digital cell phones. Do a little research. My Nextel can hit a tower 6 miles away from my basement with 600mW on a daily basis. Try that with a handheld. Analog voice systems will soon become a thing of the past in paid for communications. I assume it will stay with ham radio for another century.

Ham radio was once the forefront of communication exploration. I fear that they are heading toward becoming little more than a museum of same. They need to incorporate high speed digital communications into their bag of tricks and WiFi seems to be the place to do it.

Operators in their area have been struggling with Packet radio since before I got my ticket. To this day they can't provide for portable stations without a high failure rate. How can this compete with high speed Internet? It can, but it takes more tech savvy than I have. Why not replacing packet with high speed 2.4 gig digital Internet comms? The ability to transmit large amount of data, including pictures, in a short time very reliably is what people demand today. Amatuer radio operators have the license and skill to be able to do it without a utility conncection, if they decide to replace their digipeaters with high speed 2.4 gig repeaters. Since they would still be sending the same type of comms that they do with other modes, they would have no reason to struggle with encryption. I think it would be very impressive to most anyone to be able to use ham radio as a totally wireless replacement for parts of the Internet.

But then, what do I know? I have been struggling with CW for years and my brain keeps trying to make pictures out of it...

Stupid brain!!

Anyway, I think WiFi or similar could be a saving grace for amateurs.

And for the handful of you guys that will tell me to Just Learn the Code...Hey, I'm trying! I will get it, but I a) have little use for it other than passing my ham tests and b) don't have much time to do it because I spend too much time doing stuff like eHam and regular ham and work and run the kid around and clean up dog...

I'll stop there and say

73,

Mark K8MHz

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K3ESE on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! What would my wife say if she saw me embracing a WiFi technician...?   RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K8MHZ on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <What would my wife say if she saw me embracing a WiFi technician...? >

Wife...Wifi

You could tell her it was a spelling error!!

K8MHz

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K4RAF on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "I think if today's ham tackled WiFi like they did the Internet, WiFi would be so widespread that BPL would have no marketable value."

This has been a point of mine since BPL showed up on the map long ago. I still see BPL as DOA, just look at SBC FTTX project, detailed today on dailywireless.org, which even mentions developing a "system on a chip". You can learn all about 802.11x, 802.16x & 802.2x wireless on that site.

Where has all the experimentation spirit gone? Having a license doesn't mean you know which way the signal comes out of the Pringles can!

Now instead of considering someone's opinion, research, experience & personal perspective, the kneejerks run to look up your call? How childish...

This whole thread says so much about their current desire to "advance the art".

ZZZzzzzzzzzzz

  RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by WA3KYY on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "I've got a WiFi LAN at home, and have to run 256 bit WEP to keep out unwanted visitors and drive-by networkers (a neighbor kid broke my 128-bit WEP). Even that level of security won't keep out someone with lots of time, a WiFi laptop, and some network busting software that is available on the Internet."

Don't you use MAC level access lists on your WiFi access point/router? Short of modifying the hardware to clone the MAC address of the WiFi cards in your home, this blocks others from connecting.

I have my home WiFi LAN set up that way and have never had anyone access my LAN. I also use a distinct SSID that is not advertised along with 256-bit WEP encryption.

73,Mike

  RE: WiFi overshoots the Ham World!   by K1YDA on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! And before you had WiFi to satisfy your"intellectual" interest in 2.4 gig propagationdid you spend a lotta time evesdropping on thewireless phones up there-- all in the interest of science of course?   RE: WiFi overshoots the Ham World!   by K1YDA on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Another thought, I think WiFi could be just the thing to put the lid (no pun) on BPL in many areasbut is bragging about the weaknesses in the WiFi system going to HELP or HURT the BPL interests sell theirstuff? If WiFi really takes off are they going to have to give up a band to it just to keep BPL at bay?   RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by KC8VWM on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I have installed my Wifi behind my firewall router.

My network is therefore inaccesable through the WiFi transciever to my PC's.

This arrangement provides for additional security and keeps my networked PC's out of the "loop" through the "external" WiFi system.

Users that can hack past the WEP security feature on my Wifi transciever will only find themselves up against the router's firewall. They might access the outside internet connection, but thats about it.

They would have the same level of difficulty gaining access into my network from the "outside" using the Wifi connection, as they would if they tried it remotely from some place over the internet.

Not a likely proposition.

In fact, I can even leave the WIFi tranciever wide open with little worry. The worst case scenerio is that they might get access and use my internet connection.

73

Charles - KC8VWM

  RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by K4IQT on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "Don't you use MAC level access lists on your WiFi access point/router?" (WA3KYY)

Thanks for making that point. Yes, I do now. I foolishly thought I could lock my barn with a hasp and a nail, but discovered the hard way the only way to keep the horse thieves out is with real locks. In other words, WEP alone is not enough. Of course, MAC level access lists are not foolproof either, since anybody really equipped for hacking in can find a way through spoofing, if nothing else.

I would encourage experimenters to tweak or modify their hardware and software for new applications or better performance. My initial post here was based on the language used by KB1KKC, "wardrivers", "guerilla networkers", "hackers", all of which refer these days to individuals intent on defeating security measures and/or surreptitiously using services installed by and paid for by someone else. At one time "hacking" did mean about the same thing as reverse engineering, but the meaning has changed because of what many "hackers" did with their resulting information.

It's simply that I don't expect to have someone who is uninvited and unwelcome picknicking in my back yard, even without my knowledge. And it seems that the only solution is to build a bigger fence.

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WA6BFH on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Joel (KE7CDV), There is nothing that limits these guys from doing similar researches (as some have claimed to be involved in) on Amateur Radio. In fact, there is a strong need for them to shy away from the toy RF stuff they are playing with, and do real microwave studies.

There is a lot of SHF spectrum out there that could be used for some really wide bandwidth high baud rate communication. The regulations do not prevent this! If they are worried about that, just drop an e-mail to the FCC to tell them the communication protocall they intend to use, and zipzap, go to town!

I will comment further after I have read the rest of the most recent commentaries!

WA6BFH 18:57 UTC

  RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by W6TH on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

Looks like the no coders, WIFI and the BPL'ers want to get rid of ham radio. WOW, ham radio is going down in defeat. Is there no-one to save the hobby?

.:

  RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by K4IQT on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Where is Andy Kaufman when they need him??? (Mighty Mouse)

.....Oh....

Well, in that case, where is John Kerry when they need him???

.....Oh....

Sorry to hear that, too.

  RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by KB1JCY on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <quote id="w6th">Looks like the no coders, WIFI and the BPL'ers want to get rid of ham radio. WOW, ham radio is going down in defeat. Is there no-one to save the hobby?</quote>

Yeah, it's called you and everyone in the community. It starts by getting off their religious wars about CW and what is considered "real Amateur Radio". The spectre of BPL is real. They can fight amongst ourselves and lose the ARS or work together.

/me disgusted with the implication that my licence class = my worth in Amateur Radio.

  Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WA6BFH on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Lets look at this from a different angle for a minute. To paraphrase Brian's first thought (not to put words in your mouth kid) 'Wow, this WiFi stuff is really cool, Ham's should embrace this, afterall how else can anyone experiment with SHF'. He could have scratched his chin and asked himself, 'how could I build up a really cool broad bandwidth communications system, that would beat the pants off this WiFi stuff'?

Several years ago my club started to develop a high speed broad bandwidth 'Communications Data Project'. The system involved the use of 10 GHz Gunnplexer transceivers, of the type typically found in commercial door openers, like those found on the doors of grocery stores. These units provided about 20 to 100 mW into a Horn antenna with 10's of dB's of gain. They also found a collection of small parabolic dish antennas, about the size of a Frisbee, that would have added some 30 dB's to the RF end of the hardware.

We designed a very nice I.F. (thats Intermediate Frequency) circuit board at 50 MHz (another minimally utilized Ham band). These boards incorporated the power supply, and also the modulator for the Gunnplexer. Additional realestate was provided for on the PCB's to allow other logic circuitry to be easily built up by the experimenter. Also, the filter network on the I.F. could be unplugged on a DIP header, and replaced with a Murata 6 KHz bandwidth filter, so as to make the I.F. also a very cute little DX receiver on 6 Meters. I was laying out a 6 Meter transmitter board, waiting for replies to come in on the project.

We were offering the Gunnplexers free of charge for anyone who purchased an I.F kit. They were selling these kits at cost! THEY HAD NO TAKERS! You can still find the write-ups of their plans on the Internet, do a Google search. The only interest shown was from some European Ham's that wanted only the Gunnplexers, which they would not be tax'ed into oblivion for importing, because those were scrap surplus. U.S. Ham's showed no interest at all!

I could go on to point out the fallicy in the idea that "Hackers", or "Crackers" are really a benign bunch but, I'm sure all these hackers have read, "Masters of Deception" by Michelle Slatalla and Joshua Quittner. This book sits on the shelf next to my Amateur Radio "Handbook", my Shrader on "Electronic Communication" and other books on radio and technology.

.- .-. .--- --- .... -. (the first digital mode)

  Hackers vs Crackers, please learn the difference.   by K9DI on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Hi,Wayne K9DI es Leader Dog Riot here. I've beenreading this thread and one glaring error stands out.The perjorative use of the term "hacker". Hackers are not evil or malicious. The malicious ones are known as "crackers".The definition of a hacker is someonewanting to learn, experiment and explore a subject (usually used in conjunction with computers). By this definition every ham that modifies a rig, makes an antenna, or just tinkers with their gear to get the best performance out of it is a "hacker".A "cracker", on the other hand (like Kevin Mitnick), is someone that exploits known or newly discovered flaws in hardware or software to do malicious things.The above definitions are loosely paraphrased from the original jargon file.Vy 73deWayne K9DIk9di (at) k9di (dot) orgP.S. Proud to be a "Hacker" (in the classical sense)   RE: Hackers vs Crackers, please learn the differen   by KC8VWM on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Wayne has a valid point.

I remember when I ran a BBS in the 1980's that the term "Hacker" was actually a person that was highly respected and knowledgable about early PC's and thier software applications.

I even remember one of the first computer stores I ever seen was actually called:

"Harry the Hacker Computers"

The name denoted a friendly place with knowledgeable staff.

Later on after the "Mitnick" case, the term "hacker" took a downturn because of the mainstream media's new interpretation.

I think the term "Hacker" was later replaced with the word "Guru" Essentially, they are supposed to mean the same exact thing.

Perhaps "Guru" will become a bad word someday just like "Hacker" did.

73

Charles - KC8VWMLatenight BBSFidonet 221:00: ?? I forget now..lol

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WA6BFH on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I found the exact subpage on the Tech Bench Elmers web site that refers to the Microwave Data Project (which was offered in 1997 by the way).

http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2775/microwave_notice.html

73 all! I think I've had enough of this line of conjecture! de John

  RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by W6TH on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

KB1JCY

Don't feel bad Doug, you can shove freedom down my throat. I can bear that. See you when I get to Berlin, NH.

73, W6TH

  Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by N8EKT on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I AM A HAM THAT ALSO WORKS FOR A ISP.WE HAVE BEEN INSTALLING 900MHZ, 2.4GHZ, AND 5.8GHZ WIFIFOR SEVERAL YEARS.IT SEEMS TO ME THE HAMS HAVE CLEARLY DROPPED THE BALL WHEN IT COMES TO WIRELESS DATA AND THESE BANDS.WITH THE RF POWER LIMITS HAM'S ARE ALLOWED ON THESE BANDS, GREAT COVERAGE COULD BE HAD AT A REASONABLE COST.   RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by KB1JCY on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <quote id="w6th">KB1JCY

Don't feel bad Doug, you can shove freedom down my throat. I can bear that. See you when I get to Berlin, NH.

73, W6TH</quote>

My what a constructive post. W6TH r0x0rz teh big one !!11!!1 :rolleyes:

Who's shoving stuff down your throat? Freedom is a choice you make, OM. You can choose to keep things moving forward or engage in a jihad. I've chosen to move forward.

The point is that the continuing jihad attitude is not serving the ARS. It's pure QRM and people stop communicating about key issues like licence resturctuing and recruiting the next generation of amateurs. Do you agree that the ARS is in jeopardy of being wiped off the air? Do you thing the flame wars on boards like this one are helping their cause?

73 de KB1JCY

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by AE6IP on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! > Fred tends to filter out obnoxious jerks who troll> QRZ, or who display a strong anti-ham attitude.

It would be nice if that were true; and it is what Fred used to claim. But enough people have called him on the difference between his claim and the reality of the site, that he has recently taken to giving a more honest explanation. You get bounced if you 'piss off' (Fred's term) one of the moderators.

Glen, for examplle, flat out refused to sanction one of the most obnoxious jerks on the board, simply because he happened to agree with the jerk's position.

On the other hand, Glen banned contributors that Glen himself had identified as sticking to the issues, simply because he disagreed with them.

Fred, of course, has ever right to ban whomever he wants, but I'm glad that he's now at least being honest about why he bans people.

It's too bad that so many people seem to think that being allowed/banned on QRZ indicates anything other than a willingness to question sacred cows.

It's even sadder that so many people think that there's only one true view of ham radio and that expressing any other view is "strong anti-ham".

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by KB9YZL on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! As irritating as I have found Marty to be in the past, I find that I have to agree with him when he says:

>>“It's even sadder that so many people think that there's only one true view of ham radio and that expressing any other view is "strong anti-ham".<<

Kent CarrollKB9YZL“Appliance Operator”

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by KB1JCY on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Sacred cows make good burgers, Marty. Pass the salsa. ;-)   RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by W6TH on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! KB1JCYDo you agree that the ARS is in jeopardy of being wiped off the air? Do you thing the flame wars on boards like this one are helping their cause?-------------------------------------------------

No Doug, I don't believe that ham radio has anything to do with EHAM or QRZ.COM. As long as there is income coming into the Gov't, there will always be a certain interest to have and to hold. They will have ham radio as long as the mfg's are in the need of income as well. Ham radio is built around money and when there are no longer any buyers of ham equipment, ham radio will diminish. My opinion and I take ham radio as I would a grain of salt as it is no longer ham radio but push to talk. These $10,000 radios are an example and as long as there are buyers, there will always be ham radio.

Then again, should ham radio become invalid, so what? They have plenty of new ideas and inventions to keep us occupied.

.: 73, W6TH

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by W6TH on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

AE6IP

I heard from the grape vine that QRZ.COM could not composit and overloaded Fred's hard drive and he couldn't afford another. So Fred deleted a few dozen with sorrow, but it had to be done.

May be when he gets more donations he will take all those back that he deleted. I sure hope so and being the sort of gentleman he claims to be, I am sure he will give all a second chance.

.:

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by AE6IP on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! > May be when he gets more donations he will take all> those back that he deleted. I sure hope so and being> the sort of gentleman he claims to be, I am sure he> will give all a second chance.

but will he give us all rides in his Cessna?

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by KB1JCY on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <quote id="AE6IP">but will he give us all rides in his Cessna?</quote>

Feh. Small planes and me don't mix.

  Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WA2JJH on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Cessna-very pedestrian. Twin engine private jet is another.

Moving right along. I understand many have been kicked off of QRZ ,consider it a statement of free speech.

802b is built into every new laptop. One cannot help but hit the scan key. I get 3 open networks just by parking on WIFI CH-6.

If a system is open, it is public access. I did not travel in a car. I just turned on my IBM laptop and the open networks appeared on my screen in my apt.

Many that buy those 802B $70 routers from radio shack are just consumers. They have no interest in ham radio. I got tired of getting my modem card ripped out when I moved the computer. I bought a router for my own use.

No one has hacked me...yet. Many times it is just people's built in 802B auto activation, that end up in my router. I do not need 12megabit wide connections.

What many hams ARE doing to fight BPL, simply leave thier wireless router open. My electric company is going to offer BPL for $35/month.

Having an open system is not always ignorance.My 802.b router always on, is a deterent to my neighbors getting BPL. Rat Shack also sells the booster amplifiers. I have no idea what the power output is.

That is where I see Ham Radio falling into WIFI asBPL prevention. Nothing more, nothing less.

I also remember when a Hacker was just a hard working computer operator. They would look for open doors on the internet. They would do NO HARM.

The hacker of today is proud to be a silver collarcriminal. Very unfortunite indeed. Robin Hood gave back to the poor.

The silver collar hacker will move on to bunco, electronic credit card theft, and getting extra minutes out of stolen pre-paid cell phones.

As others pointed out 900MHZ, 1.2, and 2.4 gig were ham radio frequencies. Use it or loose it. The same could happen with HF. Perhaps the FCC will legalize those 100W 10-12M radio's. It would be like GMRS for truckers.

Try 10M from time to time. It can be great. It can be dead.

Bottom line is that any other under utilized band will be taken away.

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by KA4KOE on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I love my wifi 802.11b network. Look at my profile picture on QRZ (I haven't been banned, mainly because QRZ is a poor second to Eham, and I don't frequent it), and you'll see my D Link router.

My wife can surf from her laptop in bed, and says the wireless card for her laptop was the best gift I've given her.

Feeleep

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by KC8ZTJ on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Wait a minute, seems like I just took a test that talked about radio amateurs and radio control. I must have missed something. Hmmm. That said, I would have to agree. Wifi is a kindred spirit. I have been in PDA users group meetings where they discussed yagi antennas and signal propagation. The difference in the PDA user group and my Ham Radio group is largely a matter of age.   RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by AC0H on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <<"Why bother with a license to restrict you when you can have much more actual fun without endlessly arguing over rules & seeking approval.">>

Maybe they need to ask the question, why do people think it's "fun" driving around trying to break into unprotected or mis-managed WiFi networks?

What happens when these people DO get licenses? How will they fit into a hobby that DOES require following "rules and seeking approval"?

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WA6BFH on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! WiFi is a 'kindred spirit to Ham Radio' -- give me a flipping break -- LOL! I have been to some of these Pringles can sessions. Its like, wow man, it really seemed to work better when I stood on my head! Thats their idea of 'signal propagation studies'.

I'm more worried about the Ham radio community though with comments like, 'try 10 Meters, sometimes it works good but, sometimes not. How about researching siganl propagation to learn about Sporadic E layer propagation, or how the Earth/Sun position works over the various months of the year and can enhance F layer skip, even as they decline in the 11 year sunspot cycle.

I liked AC0H's comment, basically begging the question 'why do they want people that are wedded to breaking the rules'. They have lost much of the SHF spectrum! They will lose more unless they develop really cool uses and practices on it ourselves. Of course, that does not fit easily into the new Ham Radio view on plug and play!

  RE: their bands, their interference   by KC0LTV on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! What this thread is showing is the ham radio community's unwillingness to get with the times, something they need to do if they wish to survive! There's nothing wrong with WiFi as a hobby. With ham radio, one could take advantage of their allocation here by using the higher powers they are allowed to use. Of course, the whiny, close-minded, and judgmental crowd will see 2.4 Ghz as kiddie-land to be avoided in lieu of the "real" 1200 bps VHF packet links the old-timers use...   RE: their bands, their interference   by K4RAF on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "Maybe they need to ask the question, why do people think it's "fun" driving around trying to break into unprotected or mis-managed WiFi networks?"

*** High Horse Alert*** Where is wardriving defined as "trying to break into networks"?

AirSnort/NetStumbler is the automated logging of Access Points, SSID's, Signal Strength, signal-to-noise, channel & if the AP is running WEP. If you add a GPS to the setup, you can map the results of any signal survey using popular mapping programs. I use my laptop in the truck without ever having to touch anything, much like cellular drive testing.

No "breaking in" involved, no harm done. As someone already said, if you can associate to an open network, you are being invited to use the connection. What does ham radio offer in parallel that isn't at least 20 years old? Packet? : )

Perhaps you might try to educate yourself before your broad brush runs out of rosey paint for your tired old cliches'...

  listen, you young punks   by NN2U on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! As a member in good standing of the CWA (the Century Wireless Association), I feel that no-code, WiFi and BPL will be the ruination of ham radio.

Of course, in 1910 I predicted that wireless telephony would be the downfall ot the radio hobby, and personally traveled to the home of Dr. Lee DeForest, set fire to a bag of dog poop, knocked on his door and ran away.

Following the second World War, against my stern warnings, ham radio operators began using single sideband. Suddenly their precious bands were filled with unintelligible gibberish. Were their government not busy with Korea and Joe Stalin's commies, they doubtless would have taken away their bands due to gross misuse and abominable operating procedure.

All the so-called "advances" from then to today have steadily chipped away at the cornerstone of amateur radio. Whole portions of their bands are now filled with odd bleeps, chirps and deedle-deedles that somehow translate into idle text chitchat when connected to one of those infathomable computing boxes. This union of electric calculating box and ham radio transmitters is surely the work of the devil, and a major contributor to the weakening moral fabric of their nation.

All you young whippersnappers seem to care about is "connectivity," as if ham radio was all about bringing people together. Of course, they true hams know that amateur radio is really about exchanging signal reports, gas prices, rainfall amounts, and minute details of their ongoing physical deterioration. That and spending the better part of every weekend screaming "CQ CONTEST" into their trusty old Astatics until we're blue from lack of oxygen.

Every day, at 3 pm, I join my honorable amateur friends in the Greater Springfield Traffic Net And Grim Reaper Roll Call, and for two hours a day they greet one another with a hearty round of "no traffic"s and "any further check-ins?" This is the true public service for which amateur radio was created, and they are proud to be on the ready in the very real likelihood that an emergency takes out every landline, cellphone, coaxial cable, fiber optic pipe, public-service repeater, and VHF handheld in the United States.

We carry on this thankless tradition while you young hoodlums are roaming around the neighborhoods in your trucks attacking the computing machines of people you don't even know with killer viruses and electric mail messages offering discounts on potions which unnaturally stimulate the male sexual organs.

You should be ashamed of yourselves. That is not the spirit of amateur radio.

Very soon my lifelong predictions will come true and they will all lose their wonderful hobby to a generation of tinkerers who have no respect for the countless hours they have spent sitting in their cellars saying nothing to one another.

Bah!

Yours in disgust,

Elbert T. Grumpinfutz(call withheld by request)

  RE: their bands, their interference   by K4IQT on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "No 'breaking in' involved, no harm done. As someone already said, if you can associate to an open network, you are being invited to use the connection."

CJ, the problem is that most of those folks who are running open networks do not know it - they just bought a WAP at Best Buy and a card for their laptop, and are unaware that any wardriver can access their open network.

There is nothing wrong with locating the networks, hunting them, measuring them, documenting them or whatever, but many wardrivers are looking for a network to explore. That is, to most people, electronic trespassing - just because they "left the door unlocked". They may have personal data on shared resources on their network, and think they are protected just because they have routers on their wireless and broadband links, and maybe some easily-breakable firewalls on their clients.

BTW, it's interesting how this thread has meandered away from WiFi and now borders on the future of amateur radio!

<chuckle>

--K4IQTTerry

  RE: their bands, their interference   by AC0H on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <<"There is nothing wrong with locating the networks, hunting them, measuring them, documenting them or whatever, but many wardrivers are looking for a network to explore. That is, to most people, electronic trespassing - just because they "left the door unlocked". They may have personal data on shared resources on their network, and think they are protected just because they have routers on their wireless and broadband links, and maybe some easily-breakable firewalls on their clients.">>

Exactly.

Most wardrivers roam around town trying to find WiFi hotspots which is fine and good. Most of them also mark the best signal spots. Why if not to come back to try and ILLEGALLY access the network?

This has nothing to do with an ISP, individual, or company, (Starbucks comes to mind) from offering their network freely. We're talking about people sneaking around with frequency counters, GPS recievers, and laptops trying to access closed networks. Plain and simple.

<<"Perhaps you might try to educate yourself before your broad brush runs out of rosey paint for your tired old cliches'.">>

OK sonny I'll do that.Oh wait,..........I do this stuff for a living, keeping punks out of networks I mean.

  RE: their bands, their interference   by W4CNG on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! You don't need frequency counters and GPS receivers to find the networks, just a simple handheld device called a PDA with WiFi. BTW, anyone who thinks 50Watt output power on a network works, better think more than twice, cause who cares if you can be heard 20 miles away from that Mountain-top location when you cannot hear the 200MW laptop 15 miles away trying to talk back. Sounds like an Aligator 2 meter repeater to me, does not quite add up. Wireless in more than one form is here to stay, there are lots of varieties to ride on.Steve W4CNG Surfing the free and abundant Spots.   Hug a WiFi-er today   by W2EV on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Steve wrote, "...anyone who thinks 50Watt output power on a network works, better think more than twice..."

Right on, Steve. This is e-x-a-c-t-l-y why it is advantageous for Amateur Radio to find a way to embrace those who are exploiting the Part15 users of the WiFi frequencies. They have learned many lessons over the years...lessons that can be built upon.

1. --- Cellular radio and APRS are living examples of where high power and long distances for the purpose of uplinking users to a network are bad ideas. On the other hand, it's a great way to link "cells" of activity together...as a backbone.

2. --- FM Repeater sub-bands and their regional coordination are living examples of how to waste spectrum and setup unnecessary conflict. On the other hand, a national plan for digital spectrum usage could serve us well.

Why do WiFi DX enthusiasts do what they do? For the same reason they do what they do. It's fun and exciting. They are limiting their ranks by taking a "holier than thou" viewpoint of their activity.

Embrace the WiFi experimenters. They are cut from the same cloth. Elmer them into the hobby and inject more energy into your club than a bottle full of Geritol ever could.

Ev Tupis, W2EV

  Wrong poop   by KA4KOE on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "Of course, in 1910 I predicted that wireless telephony would be the downfall ot the radio hobby, and personally traveled to the home of Dr. Lee DeForest, set fire to a bag of dog poop, knocked on his door and ran away."

Dr. Lee didn't invent radio telephony. You should've vandalized Fessenden's lab. ITS ALL YOUR FAULT...WRONG HOUSE, YOU DUMMY!!!

FEELEEEP

  RE: Hug a WiFi-er today   by WA6BFH on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! W2ev. Ev, contact me directly, and I will help you with any explanation I can muster with such issues.

73! de JohnPSIs there a reason why your name and callsign are so similar?

  RE: Wrong poop   by AE6IP on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! > Cut me some slack. I was only 9.

Your previous post was one of the funniest things I've ever read on a ham forum. Thanks,

Marty

  Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WA2JJH on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! yEah, so what they meanderd,we went out of scope. they took other social issue's to the table. BFD!It is indeed fun.   Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by KA2YBP on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Looking down the nose of your code-requirements and degrading hobby, you say NO to WIFI'ers... You said no to CBers, you said no to codeless licenses... See a pattern. Why not embrace WIFI, it is the newest blood, perhaps the last wave of people to get interest in a 'hobby', simply said... It's wireless, isn't that what the ham hobby is about. OOOps, I forgot, it's a service. I listen to the Indiana traffic net meet daily on 75m, roll call list of their telephone directory of anyone who has checked into their net... Bla Bla.. No traffic today, big suprise. Strap the code requirements close to you and wait for the next contact. Ever look at the average age of a ham, this number will never make infinity, but it's moving up. Get with the program.   Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WA2JJH on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Brien, sometimes you have to put the shoe on the otherhand.(hi-hi)

Sometimes a repeater club may have had trouble with a chronic jammer. They paid for the repeater, duplexer, antenna(s) snd hard line.

If they also have to pay rent for the space the expenses can get very high. Lets say it is a 60W repeater. If they are in an area with lots of Imod,they have to use a PL. It could still be public.If it

If it is DPL, then chances are it is a private machine. You can set up your own repeater some day,and be just as exclusive.

In NYC all repeaters have to use PL. So much IMOD that carrier squelch will not do. Most of the new radio's allow you you scan for the PL or DPL.

  Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by VE3WGO on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! At least somebody is making used of the 13 cm (2300-2450 MHz) band. Hams are definitely not overloading it, that's for sure!

Comparing the 802.11b channelization, http://home.comcast.net/~sofa.spud/802.11_freqs/802.11freqs.html

with 13cm ham bandplans such as the one they have here in Canada, http://www.rac.ca/service/13cmrev1.htm

it can be seen that WiFi Channels 1 through 6 fall into their band.

We need to look into the WiFi transceiver cards to see if they are adaptable to any modes other than the OFDM that they use. Maybe it's not possible (single chip does almost everything), but it's at least worth trying...

Rather than fearing, rejecting, or bashing WiFiers as some have done on this thread, they really need to ask these WiFi experimenters how it's done.

They have innovated. Have you seen the Pringle's chip can waveguide antenna? Good gain figures. WiFiers came up with that.

Lots of good stuff is on the net about WiFi technology. Here is a site that includes a huge treasure trove of UHF/microwave ham radio and WiFi experimeters info and construction articles, at the Green Bay PPR site at http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/

Take it all in folks. If hams aren't using the bands, there are lots of other groups who are...

WiFi also operates in the 5.8 GHz band. WiMAX (see this month's CQ Magazine for a great introductory article by KA3JIJ) will also operate in 2.5, 3.5, 5.8, and higher bands, inside or adjacent to ham bands. it is the next coming wireless trend, and is just making it throuhg the international standards bodies now, and some companies are getting the technology worked out. Hopefully this will lead to cheaper, more readily available components and building blocks for hams to build on, just like military surplus did in the 50s and 60s.

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by AB2M on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! There were a few posts about a zillion or two back that were talking about how some folks have "secured" their 802.11 networks from hackers/crackers/miscreants (choose your term).

Let's get a few things straight:

MAC Address filtering is ZERO security except for someone who is clueless about WiFi. Almost any WLAN card can be ASSIGNED a MAC address. In Linux, this is a trivial one-line command. Someone who wants to subvert your security will sniff your WLAN (easy!), get the required MAC addresses, and use one. Unless you monitor that WLAN 24x7, you will NEVER know.

To the OM who installed his WiFi outside his firewall and is happy that the only thing that can be accessed is the Internet, let me pose a few scenarios for you. Let me know which one you feel more comfortable with:

A. Your WLAN is used to send a zillion pieces of spam, causing your ISP to cancel your account.

B. Your WLAN is used to perpetrate an attack against a corporate or government network. It will be traced back to you. Or, maybe it's just used to launch the latest virus or worm.

C. Your WLAN is used to traffic in child pornography, which is then noticed as part of an FBI sting operation. FBI agents come to your door with a warrant and haul you and your PC off.

If you think that spammers, hackers/crackers, and pedophiles aren't doing this today, then I suggest a lengthy session of Googling.

73, Joe AB2M

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K4RAF on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "We need to look into the WiFi transceiver cards to see if they are adaptable to any modes other than the OFDM that they use."

Why do they need to reinvent some parallel to OFDM?

If the ASIC chipset only supports OFDM, where is the choice going to come from?

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K4JSR on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Marty asked, "but will he give us all rides in his Cessna?"Only if they smoke the peace Piper with him.It would help, also, to senc him a Belanca Check.After all, it's only Mooney!

Sorry, Marty. The Devil made me do that! ;-)

73, Cal K4JSR

  RE: listen, you young punks   by K4JSR on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Grumpinfutz for FCC Chairman!

Until I read this thread, I thought that Wife Eye iswhat KG4RJM used on me at hamfests to keep me from buying too many goodies!

You youngsters think things are tough now? Back in the day when W4CNG and I still had hair on top of ourheads, they were soooooo tough that they burned their own warts off with their spark gap transmitters!

Wife eye, indeed! Next thing they will want is for usto get licenses and maybe even know something!

Hey, Gruminfutz, you tell 'em that they are all a bunch of girlie-hams! Teach these wet behind the ears types some respect! This is serious!Trust me!

Go away and leave me alone, now! I need to pout alone!

A. Nony MouseRat Cheer, Ga.

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by AE6IP on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! > MAC Address filtering is ZERO security except for> someone who is clueless about WiFi.

Yes, no, and maybe. MAC filtering, by itself, only reduces your exposure slighlty. However, when used with other techniques, it helps. They only allow two MAC addresses here, and both machines are usually on. So if someone attempts a spoof, it become apparrent very quickly.

WiFi security sucks. Key size doesn't matter much, as there are bugs in key exchange protocols that can be exploited for replay attacks. There are proprietary tricks that help, but they limit you to one vendor's hardware.

As I've said, my technique involves reducing the range of my WAP, so that it can't be heard outside of house and yard. If you wanna use my wifi, you gotta come onto my property.

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by AE6IP on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! > Sorry, Marty. The Devil made me do that! ;-)

bad devil. no cookie. ;)

  Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by W6BKY on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend! NN2U,

"Very soon my lifelong predictions will come true and they will all lose their wonderful hobby to a generation of tinkerers who have no respect for the countless hours they have spent sitting in their cellars saying nothing to one another."

Well said!!

- but -

In your cogent description of "Real Hams", you forgot to include those of us who know "real" Ham radio so well that they no longer bother to get on the air at all.

Heck, most ;aof us "real" Hams don't even have a rig or antenna (the retirement home doesn't allow antennas, so why have a rig?).

We simply have their Ham Club meetings at their favorite restaurant and enjoy endless re-telling of the same "good old days" stories for the umpteenth time.

Sometimes, the stories even have something to do with radio, or communications, or some such - but not often.

Now, that's REAL Ham radio!

I could say lots more, but it's time for my pills.

73, Dick, W6BKY

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K4RAF on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend! From front page of http://www.dailywireless.org

Wi-LAN today introduced its pre-WiMax LIBRA MX, for Wireless OFDM in the 3.5 GHz range...

http://www.wi-lan.com/products/libramx.htm

  Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by KF4URO on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Well, for what its worth. I originally got into ham back when the internet was not as huge and omnipresent as it is now.I had completely gotten out of HAM until I got into 802.11 through work ( i am a net engineer ) . Now Im all stoked to read about the nitty gritty modulation techniques etc. Another friend of mine at work who is into digital communications, packet etc has been helping spur me along and now I just picked up my first HT since I gave away or sold off my gear about two years ago. Knowing basic radio theory really helps out and I cant wait as 802.11 progresses and I get to read about all of the killer inovations that it provides. Maybe one day I can find time to build some home rolled microwave digital gear.IMHO, if you want ham to grow, make it relavent to the current generation. 802.11 and microwave communication has never been more relavent and embracing it and teaching people about ethics , antenna and rf theory would do more for the ham community then anything EVER has.

73's

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by KF4URO on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend! A quick tip, use WPA with radius, have it renew the key ever 5 minutes. That pretty much eliminates every applicable security exploit out there. If you are real parinoid you could use a VPN client/server and some clevor routing to nail it down even tighter. Dont allow excess coverage and make good use of directional antennas if you want to get in a certain part of the yard.Just my .02, now back to the topic.   RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by KC0GQT on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend! There are a few diffrent types of hackers...There are those who try to get into systems for the fun of it. A good network admin might be called a hacker.

There are those who do it to steal information.

Some are called White Hat Hackers who are on the good side and report security stuff to the admins, then there are the Black Hat Hackers who are the bad people.WiFi can be used for good things and bad. It just depends on who uses it I guest.

Check out 2600, 2600.com

And for those who say WiFi is NOT amateur radio, you better check your facts. Channels 1-6 fall right on the 2.4g band.

Hope this helps!

  Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WA2JJH on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend! wHITE HAT BLACKHAT

Some are just SILVER COLLER criminals!They can mess up your system if you do not have explorer and 3erd party fire wall.

They gather sensitive corperate info.Some of these WAR DRIVERS do not need the money either.They just like anarcy.

A few are as bad as terrorist. In fact, L-cheesa has been known to have cosidered messing with WLANS.

I am not saying all at all. I will often scan any location for an open NETWORK. No war-driven either.All the 802a/b/g cards have a scan funtion for networks open to the public.

Some are open to attract customers, like STAR SCHMUCKS. Some are just so non savvy about their $79 blue box from Radio SHCLOCK. Plug and Play.They have not a clue of who could mess them up, or steal sensitive info.

It is like the old analog cell phones one could receive on a scanner. Now blocked!

  Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WA2JJH on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend! wHITE HAT BLACKHAT

Some are just SILVER COLLER criminals!They can mess up your system if you do not have explorer and 3erd party fire wall.

They gather sensitive corperate info.Some of these WAR DRIVERS do not need the money either.They just like anarcy.

A few are as bad as terrorist. In fact, L-cheesa has been known to have cosidered messing with WLANS.

I am not saying all at all. I will often scan any location for an open NETWORK. No war-driven either.All the 802a/b/g cards have a scan funtion for networks open to the public.

Some are open to attract customers, like STAR SCHMUCKS. Some are just so non savvy about their $79 blue box from Radio SHCLOCK. Plug and Play.They have not a clue of who could mess them up, or steal sensitive info.

It is like the old analog cell phones one could receive on a scanner. Now blocked!

  As with radio, it is ALL about INTENT !   by K4RAF on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend! As with any radios, you can play "what IF..." all day. I could use a ham radio to communicate or to jam. Does that make all hams jammers?

The following statement, from NetStumbler's author, states his intent clearly to underscore more common ground than most acknowledge. This ground lies unclaimed by most of the folks posting in this thread:

{Shipley}: "Most recently I invented Wardriving, while I am not the first person to go out and search for open wireless LANS (a few before me ventured around with in a with a laptop, pencil & paper manualy scribbling notes). I was first to automate it all with dedicated software and a GPS. When I started this project the usage of WEP was around 15%, after going public with my findings, just one year later, WEP usage is now about 33%. This is good to know, that people are getting the message."

  Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by KG4ZIE on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I am a computer guy and I use 802.11 technologies daily at home and at work. At home I even use it for amateur radio how you may ask. Well about 1000ft away from my house is my friends repeater. It just so happens that this repeater is on IRLP. I know many hams do not like IRLP and say that it is not radio however I disagree as I still use my radio to access it. To get this node on the air they use a 802.11 link. Not only do they run the IRLP through this link but they use it for VoIP (Voice over IP which is basically a phone line running across the internet). So basically from a 802.11 link they provide people with a way to talk all over the world and the use of a phone. In their situation they can not get/afford a internet connection and/or a phone line up on the site so this setup works great for us.   RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WB8WKA on November 18, 2004 Mail this to a friend! NY7Q told us:"SIMPLE, It is not ham radio. wifi operators usually do what they want and break the rules...so I don't want them around."

Exactly what Part 15 rules have they broke? Content?

"Ham radio is radio, computers are computers....its simple.."

You best get out from behind those vacuum tubes and take a look at some of the radios being advertised in QST.... they look alot like computers to me!

  Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WB8WKA on November 18, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Well, once again I should have read the entire thread before my earlier content, because I am now embarassed to be part of this. More on this later.

The one thing I found interesting, in this "WiFI'ers vs. Ham's" debate is most of the serious WiFi'ers are hams operating under part 15. I did a poll of the BAWUG (Bay Area Wireless Users Group) and fully 40% on the list. And of the real mover's and shakers, 3 out of 4 held amateur radio licenses.

What this tells me is one simple thing. Their hobby has cancer is is being eaten from within. Those with closed minds who wish to re-live their childhoods of vacumm tubes and duck and cover drills.

Instead of trying to compare "WiFi'ers" to CB'ers (and how many of you came here from those ranks??) they should be embacing them. The state of amateur radio in the United States is a state of embarassment. Quick, how many of those new and fancy HF digital modes where invented in the U.S.? Europes regulations, and acceptance of alternate modes, is much greater then the U.S. and it shows.

Wake up dipshits.

73

Jeff wb8wka

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K4RAF on November 18, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "The state of amateur radio in the United States is a state of embarassment."

This is indeed true, along with denial & it is cultural in nature. I have found considerable ham movements in the UK & Australia on the web. Much of the tinkering going on is outside the US (UK, Spain, Poland, Australia, etc...).

In the end, it really seems silly to have to get a license that cuts your ability to fully utilize the utility of wifi.

We have a deep 'control' problem, driven by ruling over others, in an attempt to somehow seem 'superior'...

Part 15: No content or WEP-like restrictions, just ERPPart 97: Higher power allowed but content restricted & no level of "security" allowed

Who are the CB'ers???

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by KF4URO on November 20, 2004 Mail this to a friend! You can apply the security on top of any modulation schema. I have been very interested in playing with different modulation schemes since getting into 802.11 and then back into ham. I need to get in touch with that guy with the 10gig horn kits and see about getting one of those.We need at least a portion of the ham community to lead the away again, in modulations, antennas, and pretty much anything microwave or related. Lets declare packet dead and do something really interesting like a network of HAM 802.11 esque nodes that blanket whole cities. Then they would have the infrastructure to do anything. Like anything else in the world for HAM to grow they have to stay relevant.   RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K4JF on November 20, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <"Ham radio is radio, computers are computers....its simple.."

You best get out from behind those vacuum tubes and take a look at some of the radios being advertised in QST.... they look alot like computers to me! >

Maybe you should read the description better, then. They are certainly NOT computers. They USE computers, but they are not computers. Computers are a tool, nothing more. But using them maliciously, like the so-called wi-fiers, is against all that is good about ham radio. They should welcome them into their ranks only if they reform their ways.

Ham radio has far, far more to offer than computers ever will. After the hams before us brought computers into the home, they should use them as the tools they are.

Re some of the terminology here, why has the term "wireless" come back into vogue? That was the term for "radio" 100 years ago... why is it back?

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WB8WKA on November 20, 2004 Mail this to a friend! K4JF told us:

"But using them maliciously, like the so-called wi-fiers, is against all that is good about ham radio."

Please cite examples when you make accusations about this. Do you even know of any of the community WiFi groups? Tell me exactly what is "malicious" about these WiFi'ers:

http://andrewhitchcock.org/gallery/2003wirelessfieldday

Yeap, that is right, those nasty ignorant WiFi'ers had their own field day.

"We should welcome them into their ranks only if they reform their ways."

Lets see, hang around with some ignorant old men stuck in the 50's, or do neat and cool things with wireless and computers.....

"Ham radio has far, far more to offer than computers ever will."

Us vs. them maybe? Wake up, computers are here and are part of the hobby. Ham radio has far far more to offer when it embraces modern technology....

"Re some of the terminology here, why has the term "wireless" come back into vogue? That was the term for "radio" 100 years ago... why is it back?"

Possibly because many of the things these guys are trying to do... message traffic, community networks, ect ect where the roots of ham radio back in its early days. Don't know.

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by KB5WBH on November 20, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Would 900mhz be better? Don't know if the right equipment is out there for it, just wondering since 2.4ghz is so popular with non hams.73Mike   Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by N1YRK on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! As far as the "hacking" and "guerrilla networking" goes, a few people here are using the wrong defenitions of "hack" to jump to a negative judgement on the value of these radio hobbyists. THe author of this article means "hack" in the pre- "WarGames"-movie meaning, which was someone who liked to mess around with technology in non-traditonal ways. I think that THIS meaning has much in common with ham radio. The OTHER meaning of "hack" has more to do with pirate radio, cellphone services thieves, and people who jam others communications - i.e. the "bad guys".

SO, with that cleared up - A couple of years ago I started a group called BAWIA - Boston Area Wireless Internet Alliance - http://www.bawia.org - to promote and coordinate activity in the the area that the author speaks of. However, I have found a very low level of technical competance in the RF end of things in the group as a whole. They need hams! Ham radio also also needs the enthusiastic, young new blood that this movement offers. So I encourage this cooperation!

What I find alarming is among these hobbyists there is practically NO regard given to lightening safety - arrestors are hardly ever seen! Another thing I have been trying to educate people on is the RF loss in lengths of cheap cable at microwave frequencies. Many of the antennas sold at computer stores for home networking have long lengths of generic cable that is WAY too thin to give me any confidence that the small gain given by such a tiny antenna isn't wasted on the 15 feet of flimsy cable attaching it to the WiFi card!

A fun project for "hacking" on is the MIT roofnet software, which forms a self-organizing "grid" a.k.a. "mesh" network from old PCs with a wireless card. See http://pdos.lcs.mit.edu/roofnet and http://www.bawia.org/meshax

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K4JF on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Lets see, hang around with some ignorant old men stuck in the 50's, or do neat and cool things with wireless and computers.....

WHAT ignorant old men in the 50s?? Check out my website - you will find my station (except for the TL-922) all solid state and very advanced. Three networked computers are there doing all kinds of "cool things". BUT, all legal and above board, not hacking.

"Ham radio has far, far more to offer than computers ever will."

<Us vs. them maybe? Wake up, computers are here and are part of the hobby. Ham radio has far far more to offer when it embraces modern technology.... >

AGAIN, it don't get any more modern than DSP and solid state with imbedded microprocessors. Don't criticize from a standpoint of ignorance, you'll get shot down every time.

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WA2DYA on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! It has no relationship whatsoever to Ham Radio.

--- CHAS

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K4RAF on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "It has no relationship whatsoever to Ham Radio"

You're right...

It is progressive, involves understanding RF, uses efficient antennas & is fun to experiment with...

It is not related to ham radio, circa-2004 !!!

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K4RAF on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I also forgot to mention, it has the devout interest of more than 700,000 people under the age of 18...

Definately not ham radio related...

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K4JF on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <I also forgot to mention, it has the devout interest of more than 700,000 people under the age of 18... >

I find that VERY hard to believe. It's just computers... a tool, not an avocation.

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K4JF on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <It is progressive, involves understanding RF, uses efficient antennas & is fun to experiment with...

It is not related to ham radio, circa-2004 !!! >

Uhh, I think you have it backwards. You are describing ham radio, not wifi hacking. I doubt seriously if any of those understand RF: most computer hobbyists can't even spell it.

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by AE6IP on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I think this thread relies on too many loaded words and phrases. They should cut through the underbrush and get to the underlying question.

Rather than terms like "WiFi" and "Wardriving", let's talk about the underlying technology.

"WiFi" is just a marketing name for a particular approach to very short range radio networks. These nets, collectively, fall under the heading of 802.11 -- an IEEE subcommittee, and the standards produced by that subcoommittee.

WiFi, and its competitor, bluetooth, were originally aimed at very short range networks. Originally, bluetooth was intended for "body area" networks, while WiFi was intended for building area networks.

But it is the nature of computing networks that "local area" grows to encompass as large an area as technically feasible.

For WiFi, this means attempts to grow beyond the few hundred feet implicit in the original power/antenna designs, and see how far such networks can be extended.

There are informal approaches, such as the infamous pringles can antenna, and there are more formal approaches, such as the consortium that is attempting to extend RF nets to the geographic scope that broadband networks currently have.

Is this relevant to amateur radio? It could be, but it doesn't have to be. If, as I contend, the amateur radio hobby is now about enjoying anachronistic means of radio communication, notably HF and VHF/FM; then there is no intersection.

If, on the other hand, if amateur radio is about being on the RF communications leading edge, as those who like to cite section 1a of the regs like to claim, then attempts to extend WiFi are very much fruitful grounds for both amateur radio hobbiests and for recruiting amateur radio hobbiests from.

After all, this is about as QRP as radio communications get, and it is, very much about things like efficient antenna design, and frequency sharing.

On the other hand, it is also about what is, in reality, the large gap between the state of the art in radio communications, and the state of the art as practiced in amateur radio.

Which path this hobby takes at this fork in the road is entirely up to the hobbiests. I predict it will go in the direction of nostalgia and anachronism -- and that's perefectly fine with me; since that's why I got involved in the hobby.

The only danger is to go down the one path while believing that the hobby is going down the other.

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by AA6YQ on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! A computer is indeed a tool. So is a radio. Both are extensions of basic human capabilities -- computing, managing information, and communicating.

The combination of wireless connectivity and distributed computing is producing an explosion of new opportunities. Those who love glow-in-the-dark equipment, CW, and HF propagation are free to enjoy their nostalgia. Those interested in pushing forward are also free to do so, and ought not be held back by the need to demonstrate mastery of commodity technology.

Every transceiver built in 1950s incorporated parts made of steel and copper. Did amateur radio exams of that era require knowledge of forging steel, or smelting copper? Of course not; such parts were available off-the-shelf, and could not be significantly improved by amateur practitioners. The extrapolation to today's technology is obvious.

I wrote my first computer program in 1968, designed my first commercially-released computer in 1972, and started writing amateur radio software within months of getting my ticket in 1990. I love DXing on the HF bands, and will continue to do so until I've confirmed every DXCC entity on every band between 160m and 6m, and on phone, CW, and RTTY. I redesigned my SB-220 for 8-band operation before replacing it with an AL-1200, which only fails to glow in the dark because its tube is ceramic and its meter lights are long blown. Creating and maintaining the freeware DXLab Suite has taught me a ton about user-driven software development, and helped stimulate my thinking about wireless mesh networks that use WiFi and ultra-wideband to create a communications fabric they could never achieve at HF.

My point is that their hobby encompasses a broad range of interests, and they are not mutually exclusive. You're not personally interested? No problem. Just don't discourage those who are.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WB8WKA on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! K4JF told us:

"WHAT ignorant old men in the 50s?? Check out my website - you will find my station (except for the TL-922) all solid state and very advanced."

Your right, the average ham in the 1950's at least built part of his station... just like the average WiFi hacker these days. Your station, while nice, looks entirely storebought.

"BUT, all legal and above board, not hacking."

You don't even know what hacking means. I am HONORED to be called a hacker. Means I have a brain and I like to experiment and learn how things work.

Or do you mean black hat hacking? OK, for the second time, please document the accusations you are making.

  RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by KD7ZOX on November 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Well, I'm part of the "Computer Crowd," being 15, and I have learned a lot abot networking, ecryption, 802.11b, 802.11g, and even the days of Token Ring, which uses coax cable to network(although I despise it as it is incredible unstable and slow). I'd like to think I have good ethics. I do not hack into others computers, although I am perfectly capable of it. My friend Al, KE7AUK, is also someone who is good with networks, and i got him interested in Ham Radio. It seems there might be a pattern here... I have gotten my friend Jeremy interested, he works at IBM, and he's head of the network staff there. All of these people are good people, and have good ethics. I think many people nowadays don't have enough faith in the newer generations.

KD7ZOX

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K4JF on November 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <You're "right, the average ham in the 1950's at least built part of his station... just like the average WiFi hacker these days. Your station, while nice, looks entirely storebought." >

And you built your wifi boxes? What kind of setup to you have for making the ICs?

I have built many computers myself, absolutely no more difficult than integrating the various components of the station. BTW, the computer you see in the station photo (one of 3) is a homebrew, so I know what I am comparing. Also have built several rigs over the years, both kit and my design (one of the kits is visible in the photo - the TenTec 6-meter rig.)

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K4JF on November 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <You don't even know what hacking means. I am HONORED to be called a hacker. Means I have a brain and I like to experiment and learn how things work>

I know EXACTLY what hacking means. I have been in involved in home computers for over 25 years, built my own back in early 80s. Ever read the book "Hackers"?

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WB8WKA on November 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend! K4JF told us:

"And you built your wifi boxes?"

Actually, yes. At least the software image for my WRT54-G's using the SVEASOFT and EWRT distro's (based on the LinkSys GPL code). Also quite a number of antennas as well as one amplifier. I noticed you even bought your Windom, which is a simple wire antenna (one of which I homebrewed for my HF ham station).

"What kind of setup to you have for making the ICs?"

Yeap, figures. You'd be the appliance operator in the 1950's who would also asked the ham hacker of that era if he had refined the copper and mined the iron for the homebrew rigs of that era.

"Also have built several rigs over the years, both kit and my design (one of the kits is visible in the photo - the TenTec 6-meter rig.)"

Good for you. Then why all the basely accusations against hams that want to experiment with WiFi? You realize twice I have asked you to document your claims of law breaking, and twice you have ignored them.

Bottom line, if ham radio wants to survive, it has to be relevent to today's society. "WiFi hacking" and alliances with WiFi community networking groups can go a long way into making this happen.

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K4JF on November 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend! And you built your wifi boxes?"

Actually, yes. At least the software image for my WRT54-G's using the SVEASOFT and EWRT distro's (based on the LinkSys GPL code).

Uhh, that's writing software (which I have done - and marketed). Not quite the same.

"Also quite a number of antennas as well as one amplifier. I noticed you even bought your Windom, which is a simple wire antenna (one of which I homebrewed for my HF ham station)."

Who said I bought the Windom? I've built quite a few wire and other antennas, including helical, even. But a board like this should not get personal, so let's stop that.==================================================

"Bottom line, if ham radio wants to survive, it has to be relevent to today's society. "WiFi hacking" and alliances with WiFi community networking groups can go a long way into making this happen."

Bottom line, they want people in this hobby/service who are inclined to operate within the rules. If "being relevant to today's society" means they must accept society's current attitude that laws are meaningless if I don't want to follow them (as in "Who are you to tell me to slow down in the school zone?") then they have only anarchy ahead ("the hacker ethic"). They have had some great people come in from the other lawless group, but have also had some real problems from some of them who do not want to follow the law. They don't need more.

As I said before, I welcome all who are really interested in the hobby/service. But only if they plan to operate within established laws and norms. I really don't understand why that is such a barrier.

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K4JF on November 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Another point: This is a service as well as a hobby. Often, in an emergency situation, they are working shoulder-to-shoulder with law enforcement personnel. (Done it many times.) How effective will they be if it gets known that they welcome lawbreakers into their ranks, without at least requiring reform?   RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WB8WKA on November 27, 2004 Mail this to a friend! k4jf claimed for the fourth time:

"Bottom line, they want people in this hobby/service who are inclined to operate within the rules."

and later said:

"How effective will they be if it gets known that they welcome lawbreakers into their ranks, without at least requiring reform?"

I've now asked you I believe 3 times to justify this statement. You say you don't want to get personal, yet you go on and on with the accusations. I'm not saying your wrong (or right), I'm just asking you to demonstrate your not full of shit and just a techno-rascist who doesn't want anyone in the hobby that doesn't think the way they do.

But it sure seems that way. I guess your lucky you didn't run into someone like yourself back when you were playing CB back in the late 70's... not that you where doing anything illegal, but they do know how all those WiFi'ers are lawbreakers, just like those CB'ers where, don't we?

BTW, SOFTWARE is where radio is... not to say I haven't designed the hardware (have a part 15 900mhz XE1202 radio in for testing for certification now).

BTW2, you didn't say "windom", you said "carolina windom" which is a storebought custom design windom, which RadioWorks holds an exclusive license to produce/advertize under that name.

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WB8WKA on November 27, 2004 Mail this to a friend! K4JF told us all:

"You are describing ham radio, not wifi hacking. I doubt seriously if any of those understand RF: most computer hobbyists can't even spell it."

Obviously your spell checker is broken then.

Take a few of these web pages to your next ham meeting, and tell me how many of the hams understand what these "wifi hackers" are doing:

http://trevormarshall.com/waveguides.htmhttp://www.geocities.com/lincomatic/homebrewant.htmlhttp://martybugs.net/wireless/biquad/http://www.wireless.org.au/~jhecker/helix/http://www.netscum.com/~clapp/wireless.htmlhttp://www.olotwireless.net/catala/Building.htm

and on and on...

They certain appear to know how to spell RF.

Jim, you really need to get out of the house more. It is a brave new world out there, and at least in advancing the state of the art on 2.4ghz, ham's are being given a run for the money by the WiFi hacker's.

I for one think they should embrace them, rather then shun them like you seem to advocate. Of course they need to follow the rules, that goes without saying, but you've yet to cite any specific infractions you have observed.

All barbs aside, ham radio embraced "cb radio", like it or not, back in the late 70's. There is no comparsion between the "WiFi hacker" and the CB'ers of the 70's. WiFi hackers are far more technically knowledgable then the CB'ers of the 70's and quite frankly, most hams today (when it comes to microwaves).

They would be a great asset to the hobby.

And honestly, you shouldn't feel threatned by them. I doubt if many would be interested in voice or digital on 80 meters, they have a specific goal in mind, and that goal is not ragchewing.

But they are different then you. You'll need to deal with that.

73

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K4JF on November 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <Of course they need to follow the rules, that goes without saying, but you've yet to cite any specific infractions you have observed. >

Thanks for the websites - they prove my point! The first one I looked up had disclaimers that say this antenna I am describing is in violation of FCC rules, don't do it, etc., etc., etc. Kinda reminds me of the illegal CB linears sold exclusively to CBers with a big label "Illegal for CB use".

Again - Amateurs are well-known (if imperfect) for self-policing, and they welcome all with an interest, IF and only IF, they refrain from illegal use. And since they agree on that point, where is the problem?

  RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WB8WKA on November 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend! The problem is you said they where lawbreakers, yet you have repeatedly failed to provide one single example...

Do you even have a clue? Do you know what 15.23 even says? How about the recent liberalization of the part 15 rules to allow mix and match?

Jesus christ, you are exactly what is wrong with the hobby. Self rightous assholes who scare away anyone with half a brain.

I give up. Enjoy yourself.

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